Transcripts for Episode 146

These transcripts were generated by robots, not writers.

Tim: This is about engagement with something that’s important but can take you to a place of discomfort because all things that are worthwhile, right? Take you to a place of discomfort. That’s where you grow. That’s where the growth takes place.

Stacy: Welcome, welcome. I am so excited this week to be able to introduce you to one of my favorite people. But before I officially introduce Tim Van Dehy, I want to read you a podcast review. As I’ve been mentioning, this is my big goal this year is to reach 100 podcast reviews. Your reviews make a huge difference, so if you leave one, I might read one on a future episode.

Stacy: So this one is from biz author and biz author says one of my favorites. I always look forward to new episodes. Stacy is an engaging host who finds interesting guests and topics. This show is at the top of my short list of favorite podcasts. So thank you biz author, and thank you listener in advance for leaving me a review. It really makes a huge difference. Now, on to our amazing guest today, I’m really excited to welcome a friend and mentor of mine, Tim van de Hay. Tim has been a working freelance writer since 1995 and is an award winning New York Times bestselling ghostwriter of more than 65 nonfiction books. Yes, I said that correctly. He’s also a ghostwriting coach who runs the coaching site Freelancium Co.

Stacy: And he’s the co author of a new book, the science behind why we don’t finish what we start. A jazz musician, vocalist, sailor and world traveler. Tim lives in Kansas City, Missouri, so welcome, Tim. I’m so excited to get to talk with you today.

Tim: Thanks, Stacy. I am. I’ve been looking forward to this. I’m really glad to be doing this. Thanks for having me.

Stacy: It’s exciting that you have a book coming out because you’re often the person behind other people’s books as a ghostwriter.

Tim: I know, it’s weird.

Stacy: Yeah, I’d love to hear that.

Tim: It’s weird. I’m getting asked to do all these things that I don’t have anything for. You know, I’ve been like, do you have, you know, clips of you on podcasts and until a couple of weeks, no, I didn’t, you know. Yeah, that was been the man behind the curtains and like the wizard of Oz. So, you know, and suddenly I’m in front of the curtain, it’s like, okay, this is all pretty new. So. Yeah, it’s been fun. It’s been. It’s been great. It hasn’t been. It’s been great. It really has.

Stacy: Yeah. It’s cool to see you step into that space, too. I think just having known you for so long, it’s been like at least over ten years that I’ve known you and just seeing the great success that you’ve had along the way in your career, it’s been at least.

Tim: It’s been at least twelve years. I know.

Stacy: I think that’s right. I was thinking to say ten.

Tim: We won’t overshoot. Well, it makes me feel. Makes me feel. It don’t need to make me feel any older than I already do. So.

Stacy: Well, it’s so exciting to get to introduce this new book to my listeners. I’ve already preordered my copy. By the time this episode comes out, it’s available. But before we get into the book, I want you to talk about your background because you have a super interesting background of how you got into the work that you do today. And I’d love to talk about then how that led you into this book that you. That you were releasing.

Tim: Okay, sure. Let’s see. Well, the ghosting thing happened as so many things do in life, by accident. Accident and opportunistic thinking. I guess, you know, out of college, I just did like a lot of people do. I. While, you know, I laugh because I swore up and down as a junior, a senior in college, that I will not work. I would not work for somebody else. I wouldn’t wear an eight to five job. And of course, after college, I got an eight to five job because, you know, when you’re 22, you sort of don’t have as many options, and you don’t know anything. So I spent eight years working for magazines and ad agencies. And then the very end of 1994, I just kind of got fed up with the ad agency thing. Not so much the work. I liked the work.

Tim: I didn’t like the pressure and the deadlines that were imposed by other people. And I just said, I want to control my time. I want to control my earnings. I want to control my lifestyle. And so I found three clients who loved me and hated the agency that I was with and said, well, if you leave, we’ll go with you. So basically, I approached three clients, but this was 28 years ago. I think the statute of limitations has expired on that crime. And I moved down to the lower floor of a duplex in Laguna Beach, California, with my best friend, Anton, who is still my best friend. Shout out. Hash. Boatlife. And he and his wife live on a boat in Alameda Bay. And we moved to this duplex below this constantly drunk irish couple. So St. Patrick’s days were really fun and loud.

Tim: And I started working for myself. I started writing for myself, and I was writing marketing at the time. I wasn’t doing books. Books were not on my radar at all. And about four. That was at the beginning of 1995, back when the Internet was basically AOL. So we’ve come a long way since then. It was fun. It was great. I was single, living at the beach with my best friend and working for myself, so it’s pretty good times. And then in 99, I got asked by a client of mine to write a book for him. And I said, sure, I can do that. I hung up the phone and went, oh, my God. How do you write a book? Because I’d never written one, and I never thought about writing one. I didn’t. I didn’t have any interest in writing any for myself.

Tim: I didn’t have any interest in fiction, certainly. I was trained as a journalist, so. But his book was nonfiction, so I said, yeah, you know, that’s what you do, right? That’s the. That’s the opportunistic part, you know, is you. If you want to. If you want to try new things, someone says, can you do this? You say, sure. And then you hang up. You have a panic attack. And then you say, okay, I’ll figure it out. And you figure it out. So I wrote that book. It was on branding. In retrospect, it was terrible, but it was a little foot in the door. And I wrote two more books for that same guy. The third one did really well. My skills had advanced. His publishing resources were better. It did quite well. It was the bestseller in Asia.

Tim: And that kind of got me in with some agents and some established best selling authors. I got more work. I picked up my first major deal with Thomas Nelson to do a book on aging. Well, picked up my first agent and sort of things went on from there. And kind of 2004, 2005, things started to really take off. And I just said, I don’t think I need to do the marketing stuff anymore. I can just write books. And that’s what I’ve been doing ever since.

Stacy: You’re such a great example of excellent work, continuing to drive in those referrals and just people keep sending books your way because of the work that you do. It’s funny, as you were talking about your journey, it reminded me of when I met you. You did a workshop at a conference. And I remember just, like, listening to you talk, it was very casual because that’s kind of your style. I feel like when you’re presenting. Then I found you. I was like, I have to know this person. I just was so interested in your journey. And then I found you a few hours later. There was a mixer thing after the event, and I was like, okay, that’s who I’m talking to. Because I just. I feel like you have done such a good job of networking. You’re a good networking.

Tim: That was in Boise, right? Wasn’t that in Boise? Yeah, I remember that.

Stacy: Yeah, I was. I had flown in. I was living in Ohio at the time, but I’d flown in for that event. And you’re so, those pieces, I think as a networker, you’re really good at just knowing the right people and following up with those relationships. But then also, the work stands for itself. Right. And I think that’s a missing piece, that sometimes people who are trying to build their business, they think it’s a marketing problem. But actually, a lot of the time, it’s like your work needs to be your best marketing piece, do excellent work, and the referrals will come, which has been a bedrock of your business today.

Tim: Totally. I mean, you and I have talked about this in the past about my. My really lack of marketing efforts. I mean, I don’t do a lot of marketing. You know, it’s not something that I, you know, I don’t have really well established channels and things like that because I’ve never really needed them. I mean, everything for me, were talking before we started recording about all the work I’ve gotten offered the second half of 2023, and I can only take a certain, like a third of it because I just, I don’t have the bandwidth to do anything else. Plus, I have projects that will carry over from the first half of the year that are going to continue. And it’s all based on relationships, every bit of it, and based on relationships and referrals.

Tim: And, you know, the, you mentioned that, you know, the quality of the work is one piece of that. Absolutely. No question. The other piece, at least in, I don’t think this, I think this is cross platform. I think this applies no matter what you do, whether you’re a ghostwriter or anything else, is professionalism. You know, to me, professionalism, well, to me, that comes down to three very simple things. And I’ve said this for years. A good friend of mine, when I first went freelance, one of my first freelance gigs was writing. This tells you how far back I go writing a CD ROM. Back when CD roms, multimedia CD roms were a thing and it was a fitness thing for this Gen Z person.

Stacy: That’s like, what is a CD?

Tim: What? Exactly? Exactly. It’s a disc that goes in the computer and plays video. And, you know, now it seems ancient. This is 1990, 519 96. Right. And I met one of my, she was, this woman became one of my best friends. She was a project manager on the project. We worked together for almost a year on this thing, and she became a really good friend. And she and I used to talk about how it wasn’t that hard. It was easy, but hard, apparently, to really be professional, because all you really had to do was three things. You had to meet your deadlines, communicate, and always do what you say you were going to do. And he said, if you do those three things, then you’re going to be considered incredibly professional.

Tim: But that seems to be a really high bar for a lot of people to clear, doing those three things consistently. I try to do those three things. You know, I don’t always meet my deadlines. Stuff comes up, but I’m all, if I’m not going to, I always communicate, say, hey, I need, I’m doing that now. I’ve got a, I’ve got a book I’ve got to do a rewrite on because we got a new editor for my author at Simon and Schuster, and she wanted a bunch. She basically reconceived the book from a parenting book to a memoir. So I’ve got a bunch of rewrites to do, and I’m having trouble getting a hold of the author because the author is super busy and she kind of thought the whole process was done, which I thought it was done, too.

Tim: And I just contacted the editor. I said, I need more time. I need another ten days because I’ve got to get new information for this new concept that I have to rewrite some of the material to. So just communicate and then do what you say. I told them the initial draft I’d have been by January 15, and I did on the spot. January 15, you could have had it done earlier, but I just figured as long as I get it done on the day I promised. But professionalism, that’s the other part of that mix. You can produce great work, but if you’re unreliable on a pain in the neck, then it’s not going to matter as much. You’ll still get referrals and you’ll still build a network, but you won’t build as strong a network if you don’t have the professionalism side, too.

Stacy: I agree with you 100,000 million percent. It’s interesting because I’ve been going through a process of building out my kind of referral system for clients so that when were done with book coaching or ghost writing, I have not just the publishing next step for them, but I also have the right kind of marketing contacts. So to do that, I set up calls with people and really, like, learn about their process, their success, their pricing, and then I keep track of all of that so that I can give those referrals. And I’ve been amazed at even just at the first email that I get from people, I’m like, what is happening?
Stacy: I get like, literally like one word replies on things, on emails I don’t understand because this is to me, such a simple piece of business, building of that communication piece, and then also just following up with people. Like, you know, I say, I’m going to send you something after a call, I’m going to do that. And I’m finding a disconnect with that with some of the people that, you know, I’m trying to either hire or refer to. And you’re right, it’s very simple in theory, but it seems like it’s difficult in practice.

Tim: Well, and I, and, you know, and I’ve picked up in the last probably. I mean, I think it seemed to become more of a thing during COVID So since 2020, so since I can’t really? I don’t really have a. Have any mental image of what I. What I did prior to Covid, but I think since COVID I probably picked up four or five projects. Four or five books. Because the original ghost was fired for some sort of egregious conduct.

Stacy: Yes. Just being unprofessional, which happens sometimes. Like the ghost. Ghost.

Tim: The ghosted. Or in one case, the goat. In one case, the ghost. I mean, this. You’re gonna. Your jaw is gonna be on the floor, just like mine was. The ghost was upset over not having. After signing the contract, was upset over not having and feeling like he wasn’t making enough money, so he asked the client to ask the publisher for more money for the ghost. And I was just like, are. I mean, I was. Speech. You know what takes a lot to make me speechless? You’ve known me long enough to know that I was just flabbergasted. But, I mean, that’s, you know, that’s. I can’t think of anything more unprofessional than that. I really can’t. So do those three things. That’s not that hard. I just. I don’t think it is. It shouldn’t be. But that’s. That’s what it takes to build.

Tim: To build the network.

Stacy:It’s like, write them on a sticky note if you need to, and, like, put it on your computer monitor, those three things that you just covered. And anchor back to that.

Tim: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, it take. It takes. I think you have to be dedicated to. You have to be dedicated to doing great work, but you also have to be. There’s also. There’s also kind of a servant leadership aspect to it where, you know, I know I’m good. I know I’m. I’m, you know, among the best in my profession at x, but I’m here to serve the people who contact me, and by serving them, I serve myself. It’s that, you know, it’s that kind of thing. So I’m gonna reply to you right away, and I’m gonna offer you advice or help or resources. I’m not gonna ask you for anything in return, and I’m going to, you know, do what I say I’m gonna do, because that’s. That’s just. That’s just a value, you know, being dependable and keeping your promises.

Tim: I mean, it’s not. That sounds corny, but it’s not corny. It’s very legitimately something a lot of people don’t do.

Stacy: So that’s great. Such great nuggets. So on this theme of following through with things and delivering excellence.

Tim: Nice.

Stacy: See that segue there? All about why people don’t finish things that they start. And us being in the publishing world, I mean, the vast majority of people that want to write a book do not finish those projects. Right? It’s, for many people, it’s a lifetime goal to write a book, but either they kind of get started and they completely jump ship. They hit that 20,000 word abandonment point that we know so well is when people call it quits, they finish a first draft, but it never sees the light of day. So there’s all these different reasons that people don’t finish books or they don’t succeed with their business launch, or they never launch the business. So why is that? Why don’t people finish what they start to?

Tim:Well, I wrote a book about the subject. So read the book. No. Well, that was my, that was where my head went first with this. After I thought about it as the book that it became, as the book that swipe became. But the backstory, I have to go back to the backstory first. So Swipe did not start out as the book that it became. It started out as, with, as it was going to be originally the third book in a trilogy of business books that I was going to ghost write for my client, who is now my co author, doctor Tracy Mallett, who’s an organizational psychologist and brilliant, and he’s kind of the science backbone of the book. I’m the journalism backbone of the book. Tim:
And I had written, I’d ghosted two other books for him and his writing partners for his company, which is called decision Wise. They’re based in Utah, and they are, their focus is employee engagement. The first two books I ghosted for Tracy were about the employer side of employee engagement. How do you, what do you, what can you do to get employees to engage? So we originally met at the beginning of 2020, of course, you know, before it was really before kind of COVID came and clamped down on everything and we’re talking about what would this third book look like? And the third book was going to be, okay, the employee side of that dynamic. How do you get employees to want to engage with their job as opposed to you’ve given them all these programs and all these cool things.

Tim: How do you get them to want to say, yes, I’m going to stay here and focus on making this job my own. And we had this concept. We brainstormed for a day and we came up with concepts. And one of the key things we came up with was this concept of the swipe, which was based on, naturally, cell phones and tablets, smartphones and tablets. And we said, well, one of the things that we’re seeing with research, and the research backs this up, which is that our constant use of technology has conditioned us subconsciously, because we. Because when you’re using a smartphone or a tablet or even. Or anything like that, and you’re having an experience that’s unpleasant or embarrassing or frustrating or anything like that, you can just. With the.

Tim: In an instant, you can change your digital reality with the swipe of the finger or the click of a. You know, just tapping on a. On an app. And what’s. What’s happened is we’re finding the research is showing that’s conditioned us to unconsciously believe we can do the same thing with our physical reality. And the example I like to use, because I’ve done this a thousand times, and I know almost everybody, I talk. I talk about this to laughs in recognition, because they’ve done it, too, which is when you start writing longhand on, like, a yellow pad or something with a pen or pencil, and you make a mistake, and for one split second, you find yourself searching for the undo function. And I have done that a thousand times. We all do it, right?

Tim: And you catch yourself and you chuckle because it says, because it’s silly and you laugh at yourself and you move on. But it’s that unconscious moment, it’s that unconscious conditioning that I can change my reality as easily in the physical world of atoms and molecules as I can in the digital world of bits and bytes, of ones and zeros. And that idea initially was going to be applied to the idea of employees doing that with their job, saying, I don’t want to stick this out. It’s uncomfortable. I’m going to hit the panic button and I’m going to split. And we had that. We had all. We were all ready to write that book.

Tim: And I was sitting in my backyard during the summer of COVID thinking about this concept and going, and I was thinking about what you mentioned, which is writers and all the unfinished projects and all the unfinished books and manuscripts that used to be stuck in desk drawers and probably now are on hard drives somewhere, abandoned partway through. And I thought, wait a minute, this is a bigger book. This is a universal book. This is a book for everybody. This is essentially a pop psychology book, an advice book for everyone, because most people have this issue about something that we start, something that we really want to finish, we want to achieve this goal, it’s beneficial to us if we do, and yet we can’t get there. And so that became the book that we have now that became swipe.

Tim: And that’s what we started writing back and forth and back and forth for about two years to finally get it right. But that’s where we are.

Stacy: So I love that origin story, and I can picture you on your back porch, because I know that’s where you do your best thinking often in the evening. Right. I feel like you end up going to that space. Oh, yeah.

Tim: You see the cocktail party by my fire.

Stacy: You know, based on the neuroscience that you walk through in the book, is there something about that space like, that. That space that you have for kind of unlocking your creative thinking that’s tied into kind of helping you see things through?

Tim: You know, I don’t know. I’m very. I haven’t really looked into that, actually. I’m very. I’ve always been very affected, very strongly affected by the physical space I’m in when I know some people. I know some people aren’t. I know some people couldn’t care less. They can write anywhere, and I can, in theory, write anywhere. But if I want to do my best work. Yeah. The physical space, for me, like, I love working in a busy, loud coffee house. I know some people who cannot work in that space. I can’t work where it’s too quiet. I need to have jazz in the background playing, or I need to have the background of, you know, a conversation, you know, from people in a busy coffee house. Right.

Tim: I used to have an office at Wework, and I used to be, you know, work there in a kind of a crowded bullpen with 40 other people, you know, working on whatever kind of plans and schemes they had going on. So, yeah, physical space, for me was really important. I’m not sure why the backyard thing just worked. I mean, it’s a beautiful space. During the summer. I’ve got, you know, my dogs, and I’ve got a fireplace, and I’ve got a pizza oven, so I can make myself lunch. And, you know, it’s just a nice place to be neurologically. I’m sure there must be some sort of reason for it, but I never. I’ve never looked into what that is. I’d be curious to see that. There’s research about it. Be interesting.

Stacy: Yeah, me, too. So, when you started working on this book, you said it took you a couple of years. You finished it. So you did finish what you start when you started, when you wrote this book, what did you learn that could support people who are stuck on something? And for sure, there are listeners and viewers that are like, oh, they’re hanging their head. I have that book. I started that book, you know, and I abandon it. Maybe it’s been weeks or maybe it’s been years, or maybe it’s, like, never even left their head. It’s one of those projects that just keeps rolling around in the back of their head. What would you like? What is the book layout at a high level that they can dive in deeper when they read the book so that they can actually finish what they start?

Tim: Yeah. Well, it’s a great question. Several things. Number one of the first things we picked up on was, well, and the two things are linked. One is this is incredibly common, so people shouldn’t feel bad because, I mean, it’s universal. I don’t, I couldn’t give you a specific number, but my best, our best guess from the research that we did was 90% to 95% of people would, if you polled them or surveyed them, would say, yes, I have. I have something that I’ve tried over and over again to finish, have not, unable to get to the finish line, and it fills me with regret. So that’s, it’s a universal issue. And the other thing is, there’s been almost no research about this topic. It’s one of the reasons we decided to write the book.

Tim: There’s been a lot of research about procrastination, but that’s not quite the same thing. It’s a different impulse. So about what we call swiping, which is that act of hitting the panic button. It’s that instinctive act of bailing out, like, say, pulling the ripcordental and bailing out on something. The other thing that we discovered a lot, one of the big takeaways we found is that there are really two pieces to why we do this and why we’re vulnerable to it, maybe is a better way to put it. And that is if you go into something with faulty motivation or faulty expectations, much more likely to, again do what we call swipe, which is you reach a.

Tim: So the way, you know, the way people enter into most new endeavors, and the idea here is that, you know, the things that we take on that are these kind of repeated goals are things. And the reason we do them again and again is because we know that if we ever finish them, they will beneficial to us. Right. And this by and which, by the way, also, this doesn’t just apply to goals. This also applies to relationships. We’ve seen, we’ve seen this dynamic with relationships between spouses, between parents and kids. It certainly applies to jobs. I mean, the whole thing started as an employee engagement project. This is about engagement with something that’s important but can take you to a place of discomfort because all things that are worthwhile, right. Take you to a place of discomfort. That’s where you grow.

Tim: That’s where the growth takes place. Understandably, you know, you’re going to. When you. When you take on something of importance, it’s going to be ultimately beneficial. But because you are going to, by the very nature of trying something new, you’re going to hit obstacles. You’re going to hit areas where you reach what we call a disillusionment event, where you are forced to confront the fact that, you know, maybe you’re not 100% ready for this. Maybe the. This wasn’t quite what you expected. This is harder than you thought it was going to be. We all hit those at some point. Maybe the results aren’t what you thought they were going to be.

Tim: And whether you get past that point and move on sort of down one branch of the Robert Frost road that diverged in a yellow wood, or go down the other one, which you say, I’m done, I’m bailing out, depends on how prepared you are for that moment. And that’s determined by motivation and expectation. On the motivation side, faulty motivation really comes down to questioning, why are you doing this? Why are you taking it on? I go back to the whole book thing, obviously, which, you know, every day. Just like you, I’m steep in books and writing and writers questioning, why are you, for instance, aspiring to write a book? And I don’t care if you’ve done it once or ten times, the motivation is probably still the same. The question is, are you questioning it and is it valid? Is it your motivation?

Tim: Is it something that you really want to do for yourself, or is it something you think you should do because, well, my other friends are writers. Or is it a fomo thing, you know, fear of missing out? Or are the reasons valid? Are the reasons things that are true for you so that when you hit those obstacles, you have the passion to keep going because it’s legitimately your thing. It’s not something you’re doing to impress your parents or impress your significant other or for whatever the reason is. And the other part of it is expectations. I think expectations are actually more important. I’ve talked to many writers in the past about this phenomenon, about, well, how do I get through a book? Tim:
I have all these ideas and I get started and I come out with like great guns and writing fast and it’s easy. And then I hit this point. I’m like, yeah, I know the point that, you know, 50 pages, 20,000 words, whatever you want to call it, where things just kind of slow to a stop. We call that, we call the, in the book, we call the first part of that the downhill, for obvious reasons. And you’re, and you’re, you know, you’re a, you’re an athlete. You know that when you’re running downhill or cycling downhill, it’s easy. You know, the winds, throw winds in your hair and it feels effortless. And then you hit the bottom and you have to start pedaling and all of a sudden you’re like, why is this so hard? It’s not fair that this is so hard, right?

Tim: So the expectations come in really are part a and part b. Part a is what are you expecting from the experience? Are you expecting it to be easier than it’s actually going to be? I like to use the analogy of working out and getting in shape. You know, are you thinking this is going to be, you know, the trainer on the beachbody videos, having fun and laughing with everybody? Probably not. You’re probably going to spend a fair amount of time on the floor drenched in sweat, gasping for air. That’s just part of what you’re doing. Part of working out and getting in shape is working hard. And second, what are your expectations for the results? Same analogy. If you’re expecting that after a month you’re going to look in the mirror and be the rock, you’re probably going to be disappointed.

Tim: You might be fitter, but you’re not going to be jacked, you know? So are your expectations congruent with the reality of what you’re taking on? And what we found very clearly is if expectation and motivations are grounded in reality, if they’re grounded in strong mental and emotional health, especially on the motivation side, are you doing this for the right reason? Expectations, is it grounded in research? Did you ask someone who’s done this before, what was it like? What should I expect from the experience? And you’re grounded in realistic expectations of what you’re going to do. You’re not, probably not going to have your book written in 30 days, and you might do national novel writing month and get a book written in 30 days. And we talked to Chris Batty, one of the founders, because it’s a great analog for what we’re talking about.

Tim: But those novels are usually not very good because that’s not the point. The point is to knock out 50,000 words. But are your expectations for doing the kind of work that you want to do and getting the results that you want to get also congruent with reality? And if they are, expectations and motivation are grounded in reality and grounded in good reasons, then you’ll probably do all right. You’ll probably be able to get past that point where you’re tempted to quit. If they’re nothing, the odds are good that you’re going to swipe.
Stacy: Oh, I love all of that so much. It’s such a solid anchor, too, for people that, you know, are approaching something big and they can do that check in to make sure that foundation is there. This feels like such a good compliment to the dip, Seth Godin’s the dip, where he talks about that, like creative, that creative dip or like that project dip. And you have to decide whether you’re going to keep going or you’re going to stop. But I love that this has that scientific component, and I’m sure you really deliver in the storytelling and writing because that’s what you do. It’s funny, too, because I was thinking about you, and I have been talking about a book that I’m working on and some backstory on that.

Stacy: I mean, I started outlining that book probably a year and a half or two years ago, something like that, maybe a year and a half ago. And I had really, like, I had kind of a point where I got a good amount done and then I just paused it for a really long time. And I, some of that. What’s, what I think what I’ve been thinking about, as you’ve been talking, too, is I had some pretty big life stuff happen. And I think when I look at that period, I’m like, well, no wonder I didn’t make progress on this. I was just trying to run my business and be a mom and, like, function in the world.

Stacy: And then when that space opened up, that’s when I had to ask myself some hard questions on, like, this book that I’m working on is, to me, a catalyst toward my biggest vision that I hold. And so I also think even though I had a lot going on, there was a fear component there that was, like, keeping me from touching it and then having to address that and then start kind of taking action on it. And I told you, I wrote an email to you about this book, and it sat in my drafts for over a week because, like, actually emailing you, somebody I trust and I know will be very honest with me because that’s who you are, was really scary.

Stacy: And so what I’ve focused on this particular project is that I am taking some sort of action every day, whether it’s actually working on the piece or it’s reaching out to somebody that I need to connect with or, you know, something related to that. And I’m curious, in the research that you did, because we’ve been talking about foundation, what are the things that you’ve shown that actually help people maintain and finish? Like, for me, it’s been that daily action. I’ve built in accountability as well. I’ve brought in other people to like that I’m talking to. Is that some of that grounded in science or what did you guys find on that journey that helps people finish?

Tim: Well, I don’t know that it’s grounded in science so much as it’s grounded in experience and people’s, you know, in repeated, I mean, in account after account of people we spoke with. So I think it’s grounded, certainly grounded in behavior. I mean, what you did in reaching out to me, which I’m so grateful and, you know, honored that you would do, because I think you’re brilliant. And I’m just really, I just love the fact that you, I really appreciate the trust that you put in, you know, that you put in reaching out to me and, you know, trying to help me and be honest about stuff. And I think that, I think what you’re working on is wonderful, but you reached out to somebody. You reached out to a coach and mentor, whatever you want to call it.

Tim: That’s actually a huge part of completing things, of not swiping and of sticking with it, because one of the realities, we don’t discuss this much in the book because there’s just too much ground to cover. One of the things Tracy and I have found since we finished the book was there’s a massive vein of material that we haven’t even gotten to yet because we’re kind of breaking ground on this topic. It’s gigantic. We’re uncovering things all the time. So future books, almost certainly, if this one doesn’t completely bomb, there will be more books on this topic. I mean, we’re just, we’re finding so much stuff. One of those things being there are, you know, what? You can’t, you won’t face the desire to swipe in a project just once. That’s one of the things that’s so.
Tim: That’s so crazy making about it, is you’re going to face that. That crossroads multiple times, probably now, I think it gets easier to. And the first time you get past it. So let’s say you’ve tried five times to write your first novel. Number six. Try number six. If you get past that point, if you always crap out at 20,000 words and you find some sort of strategy to get past that point finally and keep going, odds are much better that you will keep going through the entire project. You won’t swipe again. But opportunities are still going to come up. Absolutely. Because as you know, when you’re talking about, you know, family things, you know, external forces sometimes come into play.

Tim: So one of the things that I have found, that we found in talking to the people, some of the people we spoke for this, spoke to with this book was getting the help of a coach or mentor and reaching out at those moments when you start, when you’ve done it long enough and you, when you’ve. When you’ve swiped off enough and you start to understand what your triggers are and you start to understand what the red flags are, frequently there are things like your self talk and your thought patterns. And self talk is a big one because you start to see, we start to rationalize quitting. We start to diminish the goal. Oh, this was stupid. Why did I do this? That sort of stuff comes into play, and those are big red flags.

Tim: And I tell people when we’re talking about how to keep going, have someone, I don’t want to say it’s like having a sponsor, but it’s almost having someone you can call and say, I’m getting to that point where I’m getting really frustrated. I’m thinking of giving up and having someone who understands. Okay. They can talk you through that tough moment so that you keep going. That’s critical. That’s really critical. I think one of the other things, and you hit on it, I’ve certainly experienced it, is we need to practice some self kindness when it comes to our goals. You know, it’s one thing to fail repeatedly to finish something that’s. We’ve all done that.

Tim: But I think when it comes to what you experience, and I experience the same kind of thing, I mean, I, you know, I lost my dad last summer, and I was in the middle of writing this book for Simon and Schuster, the one I was telling you about, and I had to ask for more time. The book was due I think at the beginning of December of last year, I think, and I just called the publisher and talked to the editor. I said, look, this is what’s going on. I said, I’m not going to make that deadline. I’m not, and I’m not going to try. I said, I need some time and space, and I gave my son, and I was, that was a hard decision because I’m, you know, I’m pretty driven. I want to, and I want to deliver.

Tim: I want to be the guy who delivers. And I just said, I need this. So they gave, and they gave me more time. It wasn’t even a question. It took less time for, it took less time for them to say yes. And it took for me to ask it was that easy. But getting myself to ask was not easy, you know? So I think we are very, we’re very hard on ourselves. Regarding, I wrote a LinkedIn piece about this. I called it, you may have seen it about the moment, what I call the momentum myth, which is the idea and driven people like us, goal oriented people like you and me and other professionals like us, we tend to believe that success or achievement is only valid if it’s in this constant up and to the right progress.

Tim: We always have to be making steady progress. There’s no room for slowing down if we slow down, if we stop, if we pause, we may as well crumple up the manuscript into a ball and start over again. And that doesn’t make any sense because the progress you make is still progress, even if you have to set it aside for a while. But we’re very hard on ourselves. We’re very hard on ourselves when it comes to, I want to, I need to keep plodding forward. Sometimes that’s not the best move. Now, you have to have things in place. You have to have systems or measures or support or people in place.

Tim: So if you take, if you have to step aside, if you have to take a break, if you have to bench yourself for a time because of whatever’s going on, because of life, that’s not permanent. That’s one of the big tricks is, you know, you don’t want to, you don’t want a break to become a stop. That’s important. But it’s equally important to be kind to yourself. We are very hard on ourselves. And that’s where the self talk thing comes in, when you start. That’s why I say when you start to hear that self talk come in. Oh, I can’t do this. I’m not a writer. God, I’m not in shape yet. God, you know, I’m never going to get it. I’m never going to get in great shape. That’s that inner critic, when the inner critic starts to talk. Tim:
But that also comes into play when it comes to I have to keep going. I have to keep going. Sometimes you can’t and sometimes you shouldn’t. As long as you have. As long as you have some way to make sure that eventually you will circle back and restart. Taking a break sometimes is the best thing you can do. As long as it’s a break and not a stop. But that’s different than swiping. Taking a break is not swiping. Taking a break is a conscious decision. It’s important to talk about a distinction that we make in the book. We get asked by a number of people about, is there ever a good time to swipe, to walk away from something, hit the panic button. And yes, in a toxic situation, it is completely appropriate to hit the eject button. Toxic relationship, especially toxic work situation. Tim: But there’s a slight difference between that and swiping. We call that tapping out. So tapping out. Swiping is an instinctive reflex. There’s no conscious thought involved. And frequently it’s followed by regret because you’re quitting something that you want to do and that’s beneficial for you. Tapping out is something different. Tapping out is I’m making a conscious decision to walk away from something that’s not good for me. The example I like to use is the gymnast Simone Biles. Back in 2020, she walked away from the women’s team gold in the Olympics because she got what’s called, what they call the twisties, which is she lost a sense of her place in space, which for a gymnast can be incredibly dangerous. And she said, I am going to walk away from this event. That was tapping out. That was not a swipe. She was doing something.

Tim: She was making an affirmative decision for her benefit. That is a different impulse. It’s not even an impulse. That is a different process. It’s considered, it’s intentional and it’s beneficial. So it’s important to make that distinction between those two.
Stacy: Tim, that was such an important piece. And I think also that helps us trust our inner wisdom on times when it just doesn’t make sense to continue forward and to, like, bless and release those projects or the Olympics in her case. This was such a wonderful conversation. Your book is called swipe the science behind why we don’t finish what we start. I can say from experience that it’s available pretty much anywhere because I have already ordered it from Amazon store Spain, and it should be at my house by the time this airs. We’ll be sure to include a link to your website, your social media channels. Tim, thank you. Thank you. I’m so excited for this book to make the impact that I know it will when it’s published.

Tim: Stacy, as always, it is wonderful to talk to you. And thank you. Thank you.