Nina: The definition of resilience, let me just back it up to that, is your ability to adapt and grow stronger, to learn and grow stronger and adapt in a positive way to whatever happens in your life. That’s the definition of resilience. And let me, let me. People get this wrong all the time. They think it’s like persistence or grit. Persistence and grit are very different. Persistence is getting up and doing the same thing over and over, like never giving up. That’s getting up again and never giving up. Grit is pushing through when things are really hard. Resilience is learning, growing stronger and adapting in a positive way to whatever happens in your life.

Stacy: Welcome. I have been thinking a lot lately in my parenting about resilience with my kids and how to help them develop resilience. I don’t think that is something that everybody develops naturally. So I was really excited when I met this week’s guest and I saw that she talks all about this and I’m excited this week also to get to talk about her many stages of her career and reinvention and stepping into new places.

Stacy: So often we think that when we choose a path in life that is our set path and we kind of just need to put our head down and keep moving forward. But actually there are so many different opportunities that we have to create new pathways for ourselves, to reinvent ourselves, to take on new and big challenges. And this week’s guest demonstrates all of that. So let me introduce you to Nina. Nina Sasamon-Pogue is a sought after speaker, bestselling author and podcast host with a remarkable journey through elite athletics, television news and corporate leadership. After leaving home at age 13 to train as a gymnast, she became a USA Gymnastics team member and later an SEC athlete at LSU until an injury ended her gymnastics career. This injury was a catalyst for a 20 year run as an Emmy winning journalist and news anchor.

Stacy: Nina later transitioned into tech and corporate leadership, playing an integral role in a successful ipo. Today, she helps individuals and organizations thrive through challenges and change to reach new levels of success. Nina, welcome.

Nina: Thank you so much for having me. Stacy, what a lovely introduction.

Stacy: You have a really incredible backstory and so many varied points throughout your life, both as a kid and professionally. I’d love to hear more about that. Share with our listeners about your backstory and what led you into the work that you do today.

Nina: Yeah, and I like to say that my backstory is what got me here. I had no plans to do this, but as we all know, life doesn’t always go as planned. So that’s how I ended up right here talking to you today. And I think it all started, you know, when I was a young child. I was a Navy brat, youngest of four kids. So I’ll take you back to the beginning. Navy brat, youngest of four kids, and was really hyper. So my parents put me in gymnastics. You know, we got to do something with Nina. And that was always the commonality, no matter where we lived. And I was very good at it, as you said.

Nina: I moved away from home when I was 13, moved into the Olympic training, to an Olympic training center, and then I made us team, traveled all over the world on the COVID of magazines. And as an Olympic hopeful, this was like Mary Lou Rett and Bart Connor years. That’s who was on the team with me. And then I didn’t make the team and I bombed a qualifying meet and just, I wasn’t in the top, you know, few. I was more in the top 20, not in the top few. And that’s how that works in that sport. Especially back then, it wasn’t so much of a selection system. You either made it, you know, by your scores or you didn’t. And I bombed. And so that was my first big, what I call this. Like, this is not my plan.

Nina: This is not what was supposed to happen. And I had to figure out who I was and what was next there because I felt shame. I was embarrassed to walk the halls of my high school. I felt like I left, down, left, let down my family and let down my friends and my coaches, obviously, so really difficult time. But as you said, I went on to college and I became, you know, a top recruit and went to lsu, which is a great Gymnastics program was back then in the 80s. It was a powerhouse, and. And they just won the national championships last year, so still a powerhouse in women’s gymnastics. But then my freshman year, I blew out my name, and then I lost the sport. That is very much how I identified. You know, I.
Nina: I was a gymnast that, in my head, I’d spent most of my life in the gym. So then I had to figure out who I was without that. Fortunately, I found, you know, journalism and fell in love with that. And then I did many years in television. But during that journey, at one point, they went young. You know, I got. I was let go in budget cuts. They went younger and blonder. And so I had to kind of figure out, like, this was not part of the plan either. So I had these moments in my life where I was very much all bought in and going on a journey where I felt like I was having big success. And then life. Life at me, and this happened.

Nina: And then I had a traumatic experience in my late 30s that really set me down the spiral. And I was in a really dark place for a while and didn’t even think I wanted to go on. I just thought the world would be a better place without me for a while there. And so I had to dig myself out of that really dark hole and did. And then I, you know, went back on television. Then I got into tech. I mean, I won so in television, I won an Emmy for the best newscaster in the Southeast, you know, and. And, like, a big success, but then had dark times on the other side of it. And then I get into tech and had big success there. I share all this because I don’t really talk from the stage much about my successes.
Nina: I talk a lot about those failures and how you go through a failure and not just survive it and trudge along and get through life, but learn, grow stronger, adapt, and, like, get so much better on the other side of it. And that is the definitive definition of resilience that I work with. So that led me on this journey. But it wasn’t until I was 50 and my kids left for college, and I realized I become this person that people came to all the time for help. And I said, well, I knew I was helping one by one, but I wanted to help in a more meaningful way. And so I stepped away, did the research, wrote my books, started speaking, and have been doing this for years now. So there’s my backstory.

Stacy: All it all squeezed in. I know there’s so many things that we could dig into in every Single point that you. That you gave. I really appreciate you sharing both the highlights and the low moments. One of the things that I’ve learned as I get older, get to know people in different ways, and especially when I make new friends or get to know somebody that I really respect and admire, and I’m looking at all that they’re accomplishing and the great person they are, almost every time that person has a dark story, they have something that they overcame that they had to navigate through, that they had to go from. And I’m often reminded that we forget that about people.

Stacy: How often do we really look at the person across from us and think that person has been through hard things that shaped who they are today? It’s not something that we typically hold in our interactions and relationships with others.

Nina: Yeah. And maybe it was the journalist in me that always when I interview people, everybody has a story. But also in my own life, I knew my story and I truly believe. And that’s why I call it in my talks and the work that I do, I call it your reverse resume. So I have people draw a line across a piece of paper. So you take the piece of paper and turn it sideways. You draw a line across the top piece of paper, through the middle of the piece of paper, and you put 10 dots. So say you’re going to live, you know, to 100. That’s 10, 20, 30, 40. And yes, I need to drink less wine and take better care of myself, but I’m going to pretend I’m living to be a hundred. And you put those dots there.

Nina: And then your resume is all the stuff on the years across the top. And then down below, I have people put all the stuff they’ve been through. And everybody, especially now that I speak, people come up to me with their stories all the time. I look at people in that way in which you said all that I. Across the table. I always am curious about what people’s stories are, and not their accolades, but actually what they’ve overcome. And I have people put those. The things you’ve overcome down below. And that can be, you know, I was bullied in school, or I raised a child with a disability, or I lost a parent or I got fired or failed or divorced or whatever. All those things across the bottom. And I say that reverse resume that stuff down below the line.

Nina: That’s what makes you who you are. That’s the stuff that really builds character and lets you see, you know, what your abilities are, what. What’s really in you know, how. What what are you capable of? That’s where you see that is when that. In that reverse resume part. But everybody’s got a story. Nobody gets. Nobody gets a pass, folks. Everybody’s got stuff.

Stacy: Everyone. That’s such a powerful activity. I love the way that you frame that. The other area of curiosity that I often have is why one person can go through something, another person can go through something similar, and they take deviating paths, right? Like this one might navigate it and self actualize through it. Or maybe it’s a trauma response. Sometimes, you know, the hyperdrive, this person may end up completely on the other side and really never move through it. You do a lot of work in the space of resilience. Do you have a kind of understanding or explanation of that? Is that something that you’ve been curious about in your own work?

Nina: Absolutely, that is my work. So that’s exactly what happened to me. I became very curious about that because as I said, I became this person that people would come to for advice or for help. And at the time, I was working in corporate, I worked at a SaaS company, software as a service, big tech company here in the States. And I turned 50 and I did one of those exercises where you. I read it in some book, maybe I heard it on a podcast. And I put. I put it all out. I took my last two months of my calendar and I looked at it and I said, where am I helping? Where am I hurting? Like, where am I helping the universe? Where am I? What do I love to do? What do I hate to do?

Nina: And I circled it with all these colors. It was an exercise someone gave me. And I realized that the times when I was helping people were the times that I felt like I was adding the most value. And then I looked at those and thought, what are those times? What am I saying? And in those moments, it was a young guy who booked time on my calendar, who wasn’t even in one of my departments. I probably had 200 people reporting to me at the time. And I ended up in a room, a little conference room with him. And he said, I hear you’re really good at getting people through things. And I’m having panic attacks coming across the bridge. And I was like, oh, well, have you thought of this? Do this. And I would help them.

Nina: One time it was a woman who’d lost her husband. Another time, a neighbor knocked on my door and I opened it and he’s standing there with two beers in his hands with tears running down his face. And he said, I just lost my Job, Nina. I don’t have to tell my wife I don’t know how to go home. Can you help me through this? And I would walk them through the house and it sat on the end of the dock and we worked it all through. And he was okay. So I knew I was helping. But to your question, I really didn’t know why it was that some people got through this since they didn’t.

Nina: And what it was I was saying that was helping these people not just survive this thing they were going through, but that figure it out and get stronger on the other side. So I stepped away and did the homework and did the research. And what my framework that I’ve come up with is those commonalities. I looked at companies who had almost gone under and then figured out, like, Lego so many times struggled. And then it’s Lego, like, how did that happen? That was one of the ones I did some research on. And then individuals, entrepreneurs, athletes who seem so close to like, or had a huge fail or came so close to just calling it quits, but then had big success on the other side. I did that research and I found the commonalities in these four things that they all did.

Nina: And that became. And it’s a mix. It’s my own mashup of stories and experiences and stoicism and neuroscience, a little cognitive behavior therapy, behavioral science. It’s my own mashup of that. But there are certain things that people who get through and not just get to the other side, but, you know, thrive on the other side do. And there are things that people who get stuck do. And it’s the same for the highs and the lows, which is fascinating. It’s your peaked in high school guy. You know, it’s the same thing. Like you just get stuck at points in your life unless you go through this mental process and look at your life in these four ways. So it’s really. I think it’s. And I don’t have all the answers, obviously, and it’s my own mashup, but I think it’s fascinating.

Nina:That question is, why do some people get stuck? And why do some people manage to get through?

Stacy: Is one of those questions that I’m sure that there are some explanations to, but then there’s other components of it that we’ll never truly know based on the individual and their unique experiences. If somebody is listening to this right now, that’s in one of those periods of their life, which I’m sure you’ve had many people sit through your keynotes and workshops that you’ve done that are in those moments. What is it about your messaging or is there something that you offer in those talks or in your books that has really resonated with people and helped them in those moments to find their way on the positive trajectory?

Nina: Yeah. So I’m happy to share my framework. And, and it’s so simple but so much to it. So everybody hears it in their own way. And you’ll hear it when I say it here in a moment with whatever piece that you need to hear. And, and in that research, think about like the Oprah Winfrey’s of the world who, you know, born into poverty, you know, gets fired, all this stuff in her life. And then, and Lady Gaga, I mean, and lots of people who’ve been through these things that like, just how do these people become so strong? So there are four things, and I call it this framework because whatever you’re going through is your own this, like this. And it said you can hear like this is too much. I can’t handle this. How did this become my life?

Nina: So it’s your this, whatever your this is. So I use th I s and the T is this timeline thinking, like I said before, like turning a piece of paper on its side and going, okay, this is my big, messy, marvelous life. The whole piece of paper. And you put that timeline there from zero to a hundred. You can put whatever you’re dealing with on a dot on that piece of paper. And that’s where you are in your timeline. Couple of piece. Things that’s really cool about that is wherever you are in your timeline, that dot that you’re on, like I’m in my 50s, I’m over here. Stacy, you’re back over here a little bit parenting kid, like doing that part a little before me. But wherever that dot is, all the rest of that blank space ahead is pretty magical.

Nina: But you can do a little math with that. And so when I blew out my knee when I was 19, the T part, this timeline when I was 19, I blew out my knee and lost gymnastics. But at that point in my life, gymnastics was 75% of everything I knew in life. You know, because I’d started when I was like almost five years old, not even. So gymnastics was 75% of my whole life. So it quite course it felt like my life was over when I lost that sport and lost that identity. Now I can fast forward. This is the timeline perspective piece. I can fast forward to when I’m 50 and my kids leave for college, and I can go look at all those years in television and in tech and parenting kids. And then gymnastics was only 78% of my life.

Nina: I mean, it’s a much smaller number. If I live to be 100, then it’s only 15% of my life. Like, it just changes the math. So you can look at your life in that way and figure out where it fits in. And it’s really healthy to do that kind of math for yourself in your life. Yes, it can feel like everything when something’s happening, but it’s not your whole life. The timeline piece is. This is a bad chapter. It’s not the whole lifetime, and then the next. The th. The H piece is humans, like, the people in your life. And I always have people like, if you’re going through a tough time right now, take a piece of paper and put a line down the middle and put on the other way and put who’s helping and who’s hurting?

Nina: The people who are helping go one side. The people who are hurting go on the other. And sometimes the people who we love the most or they love us the most still end up in the hurting side. Like, we have to be careful about that. And then you can also see if there’s nobody in the helping piece, you need somebody over there. And people who have big success. The commonalities that we found don’t go it alone. Elite athletes have coaches, entrepreneurs have mentors. You people listen to podcasts to learn from other people. Like, we’re not meant to go it alone. If you’re trying to go it alone, that is never the answer to big success. You may get through it alone. You may succeed like you may.

Nina: You may get to the other side and survive, but you’re not going to thrive unless you let other people in. People who are really good and have big success are people who know how to ask for help. Knowing how to ask for help is really big. So that’s the humans piece. And then the I is the isolate. And the T H I in the this thi. The eyes isolate. And that is on that piece of paper with the timeline. You put lines on both sides of your dot. You put on there. And you have to go, okay, not before or after, but what am I actually dealing with that I can take action on? And I’m sure you’ve had other people say this on the show.

Nina: Stacy, Any good therapist will tell you if you spend all your time in the before the thought, that’s the woulda coulda shoulda, you know what, why did I marry this guy? Why did I take this career? Why did I do this thing? And why did I, you know, get made friends with these people? If you spend a lot of time in the past, that’s where depression lives in that before the line stuff. And then on the other side is anxiety lives in the what ifs and the doomsday scenarios and all the craziness we fill in the gaps of our story that have yet to unfold. That’s where anxiety lives. So this piece of depression’s in the past, anxieties in the future. We have just the right now to take action on and to kind of be at peace for a moment.

Nina: A big part of my framework as well. And that’s back to ancient Chinese proverbs and Marcus Aurelius and a lot of stoicism that be in the moment piece, be present. And then the last piece is the S. And that’s your story. And that’s the language in our head that comes out of our mouth, that becomes our story. So if you are in a tough spot right now and you’re listening, there’s probably you, like me, like Stacy, like all of us, we’re all guilty of this self sabotaging language we can do at times. Like we overgeneralize, this is never going to work. Or we, it’s always happens to me. Or we catastrophize, this is ruined. They’re never going to be okay on the other side. Or we jump to conclusions.

Nina: Like if somebody doesn’t text us back, we start filling in those gaps like they must not like me or they must think this is a bad idea. If we send an email and then like someone doesn’t respond quickly. No. We spend so much time thinking about it until they finally do and that’s just wasted energy and anxiety that we don’t need. And we exaggerate. I have 8 million things to do. I have 50 loads of laundry. Like who’s really done 50 loads of laundry? Right? Like that’s six is a bad weekend. But 50, that’s a little ridiculous. We exaggerate, you know, all of that type of self sabotaging language that we have to work with. And that’s the S piece in the framework. So let’s put it in a timeline, pull in the right humans, isolate it. Not before or after.

Nina: What are we dealing with? And then what’s the story? What are the words in your head that come out of your mouth that become your story? Because if you’re saying every day that this is the worst or this is horrible or life is ruined. Like that’s the world you’re living in. You gotta change that language.

Stacy: It’s such a powerful framework. And I was thinking it’s powerful for the big things, but it’s even powerful for smaller things. Like you’ve mentioned laundry. Where my brain went to is my. I’m. I’m reorganizing my 12 year old’s room with her right now, which is super fun to go through every single item she owns and make decisions on whether it stays or goes in her life. And at the moment we have all of her things in our basement in categories. So it’s like total chaos at the moment in my house. And even today I was going through, oh my gosh, I’ve got. So her party is, her birthday party is next week and we gotta get her room done. And that’s. It was like this. I was recognizing as you were talking through. It was like I was creating these stories around.

Stacy: I’ve got so much, so overwhelming this weekend. It’s all, we’re not going to get to go to the beach this weekend. We’re going to be inside working on the room. And I’m like, what? I started this because I wanted to have fun and create a beautiful space for her and celebrate her and give her this place that she feels great. But I think the mundaneness of it, the chaos that it feels like sometimes has started to permeate my experience. So for me, even in this, listening to you in this small thing has been really helpful to help me reframe.

Nina: Fabulous. Well, that’s what this framework is. So when I do this on a big stage, it’s really fun because I’ll say there are the big. This is capital T, capital H, capital I, capital S. And it’s on the screen behind me like all caps this. I’m like, those things take your life in a whole new direction. Those are like getting fired or getting divorced or a death in the family. Like you’re going along and then life throws something at you that it’s not going to be the same on the other side. Those are the bignesses. And then I say there’s the capital T, H I S s just the capital T’s.

Nina: And those are the things like you get in a car accident and maybe you’re injured and your car’s wrecked and you got to figure out a new way to get around and maybe it’s your busy time of year and you Know, you’re in a boot and it’s just like life. It’s just harder for a while. But on the other side of it, you can get back on track, you know, And I use the example like my mom had a fall, she’s 90, and I had to step away from everything that I had planned for those two months and take care of her, but I could get back on track. Those are the capital th I S’s. And then there’s the little. This is.

Nina: And those are just the lowercase ti, T, H, I s, which if you take a moment and rearrange the letters, that’s all that stuff. I gave you a second. I gave you a second. So that’s all that stuff that we have to deal with. And that’s, you know, your. So is somewhere in between there. I don’t know where you might be a capital T. I mean capital T his. But that little stuff is like you get cut off in traffic or you know, you’re getting ready to start a project and you get a phone call from your kids, school or like you just stuff you got to deal with. And our ability to put things in perspective, ask for help when we need to, you know, use the right language.

Nina: All of that for the big ones and the little ones makes such a difference on how we are resilient. And each time we get it right, we are building resilience. We are getting better at being resilient by using this framework. Because resilience is a muscle you build. And each time you get through something go, oh, that didn’t. I didn’t crush me and stop me. I’m still here. Every time you do that, you get a little stronger. So yeah, the cleaning up the room is a good example. Like it was this, it’s this big project. This project I gotta get done. And you have a deadline on it because you have a party. But really, let’s reframe it and go, okay. And in the story of my life, it’s going to be something she remembers and I remember. Let’s put some good language around it.

Nina: Let’s get help if we need to pull in some other people. Let’s like not talk about before and after. What do we do? Let’s just sit down and be in the moment, in those moments and go, does this stay or does this go?

Stacy: And you know, yeah, I appreciate about this though. It’s not about, you know, being Pollyanna around it. It’s around really kind of looking at something in a real way. And Being like taking away the, the drama language that in this case, obviously when you’re dealing with a really serious life situation, it’s going to be a little different in how that is approached and how you kind of process it. But that is great for me. Thank you. You just saved my weekend with my daughter. I want to talk about mental wellness because I know that is a really big area of passion for you. It’s something that you talk about a lot.

Stacy: And one of the things that you talk about in relation to mental wellness is this constant connectedness and this FOMO culture that we live in and how that really is hurting our mental health. And I’d love to hear from your, your perspective on that, but also what advice you can give to our listeners that want to flip that over to Jomo, the joy of missing out to or whatever that looks like for them that they could, they can combat this and really support mental wellness. Did you know that research shows that 80% of people want to write a book and yet less than 1% about actually do? And it’s not because they don’t have a story or expertise to share. It’s because they don’t know where to start. And I really get it. Writing a book can feel overwhelming. But here is the truth.

Stacy: Writing the right book, the right way can be an absolute game changer for your life and business. It can position you as a leader in your industry and open doors that can lead to long term impact and increased revenue. That is exactly why I’m hosting a free masterclass on March 28, 2025. In this hands on session, I’ll guide you through the process of identifying your catalyst book. It’s that book that is a catalyst for your big vision in the world. I’ll get you started with a creative ideation process that will help you to find the right book for right now, that book that will help expand your influence and impact. By the end of this session, you’ll walk away with the start of ideation of helping define that book.

Stacy: A roadmap to get started so you’re not always wondering what’s next and the confidence to take the first step toward authorship. Even if you’ve never seriously considered writing a book, this session will get you started in thinking bigger about your future and how a book can be a catalyst to help you get there. So if a book has been on your mind for a while, why not take action? You can sign up for this free masterclass at stacyennis.com/ booktoscale that’s stacyennis.com/booktoscale. I’ll be sure to drop that in the show notes and I hope to see you at the masterclass.

Nina: Yeah, I’ll backtrack for one moment to that last. To something you said that really piqued my thoughts when you. And it ties into this as well. On the mental health piece, when you said, if people are going through a really big thing and yours isn’t as big, your this is your this, it, don’t discount it. And. But if you’re going through a really big all caps this, it’s okay to not be okay. It’s just not okay to stay that way. Like, you can be okay. You can not be okay for a while. It takes time. There’s no timeline on this structure. But it’s okay to not be okay, but it’s not okay to stay that way. And it is totally up to you to get yourself to the other side of it. But to the end, that’s part of the mental health piece.

Nina: But to the other mental health piece, the fomo. Jomo piece. The FOMO piece. So my take on that is tied into our ability to be excited about what we have accomplished and what we may accomplish and where we are the pecking order. So this fear of missing out is really about fear of missing out on somebody, the stuff other people are doing and accomplishing. So say in the example I use, there’s a book, there’s a great book, it’s called why Zebras Don’t Get Ulcers. I’ll start with that. And this mental health and physical health stuff. And it’s all about how in the animal kingdom, you know, if a lion is chasing a zebra across a field, like, they have immediate danger, so they have a spike in their cortisol.

Nina: You know, the sugars come in, they have adrenaline, their heart rate goes up, the norepinephrine, super focused. Like, all that has to happen to escape a lion. And then once the danger is gone, everything sets back to normal. We as humans don’t do that. Like, once the danger’s gone, we continue to worry about everything. Like, what if he comes back? And who saw me running across that field? And, well, now I’m late for something. So we had this constant stress response that you wouldn’t have if you were in the animal kingdom. And that’s not helping us with our health or our mental health. And then I always take the story a step farther, further. And that’s where the FOMO comes in. And I have okay, now, this zebra has outrun a lion. Beautiful zebra. Like, been a zebra.

Nina: Tola has the stripes, has the perfect hooves, has a bigger heart, like, the. It pumps differently than a line. Like, so it has more stamina to outrun the lion. Like, all the things. Beautiful zebra. So you, Stacy, you’re really good at being a mom, good at a podcast. Like, you have all the stuff you’re really good at. You’re good at being your zebra. All right, now, our zebra outlands a line which is an amazing feat. Should be really happy that it’s got all these things that it can do that it just did this thing and survived and outran a lion. But our zebra, I take the book a step farther.

Nina: In the moment that it tucks into the tall grass for the cortisol and the adrenaline and everything to go back to normal, it does something very human, and it pulls out its phone and it says, I wonder what the rest of the animal kingdom’s up to. And our zebra sees on its feed, flamingo sitting on the beach, and it’s like, I wish I was flamingo. Wish I was on the beach. Wish I could wear pink. I’m sick of these stripes. I wish I like. I want to eat shrimp. Like, this really amazing animal who is built for something, like, immediately wants to be something else. You get where I’m going with this. Like, you built and wired and great at something, but we look at our phones and go, I wish I was doing, why didn’t I take that career?

Nina: Why didn’t I do that? Why aren’t my kids getting into Harvard? Why didn’t I buy that car? Like, all the stuff we do when we look at other people’s success and we say, I should have done something different or maybe I should change everything about me and go do a new thing. I think it’s really unhealthy because you’re probably really good at what you’re doing. You’ve gone to school for, you’ve taken a test for, or you’ve got some accreditations or some training. And then we let this fear of missing out on some other life that we could be living, that somebody else’s life, change everything about what we’ve been doing with our lives. And I’m not saying, don’t move to Portugal. I know some of your listeners are like, wait, but I want to move to Portugal. Like, Stacy, I.

Nina: I’m not saying don’t do that. I’m just saying this fear of missing out on somebody else’s life is unhealthy. What is your life? What. What’s really going to make you happy? What makes you tick? You’re the things you’re really good at. Don’t throw them away. You know, you’ve worked hard to be such a good zebra or whatever. Anyway, does that make sense? That’s my. My fear of missing out. And I think the joy comes from where you get the joy in that is looking at it from a new angle and going, somebody’s behind me and wishes they was where I am right now in my career, in my life, and somebody’s out ahead of me. And now I have something to aspire for. I have to find joy in where I fit in the pecking order, where I fit in the my lifetime timeline.

Nina: Yes, I’ve accomplished these things. Yes, I’ve overcome these things. That whole reverse resume and look at all the things out ahead. And what is my definition of success? What does success look like for me? Because, like, I always joke that I’d love to live in Portugal or go do something like that, but my reality is I miss my. My mom’s 90 and she’s here. My friends are here. I’m kind of happy just being at this point in my life, being in my own space and knowing my surroundings. I’m kind of past my adventure years. So it’s different for me. I think 20 years ago I might have loved to do that, but that’s not what happiness and success is to me. Now. It’s very different. So you have to decide what happiness and success is. I still may come visit.

Nina: Stacy, don’t get me wrong.

Stacy: I think it’s really hard to do, not just with social media, but also, I know for me growing up, I grew up in Boise, Idaho, and the community that I grew up in there really was one main path that you took in life. It involved family, kids, certain kind of way of doing college. It was expected that we’d go to graduate school. Really devastating. When I didn’t go immediately, you know, I took a couple years off. I did end up going for my. For my. For my dad, specifically because we had this kind of thoughtful. It wasn’t never any malice intended by anybody culturally, but it’s just this path that’s given to you that you’re kind of expected to follow.

Nina: Right.

Stacy: And when I started deviating from that path, when I was in my early 20s, we moved first to the Dominican Republic. We lived in Vietnam after that. Then we came back, had kids, moved to Thailand, and then now we live in Portugal and in the beginning, it was very hard because I was so early in this kind of process of creating something different, and I had no models, no path, and it was very hard. I’m finding myself in an interesting place now that my kids are a little older and, you know, we’ve chosen such a drastically different path than nearly everyone I know. Our life looks totally different. Our just everything is just different. And I’m. I’m in this place where I’m kind of looking around and going, oh, this is really interesting. I’m not really doing anything like the other people.

Stacy: And I’ve had these moments where I’ve gone, huh. I wonder if I went the right direction. Like, what would my life have looked like if I stayed in Idaho and did this? But ultimately, I always come back to choice and this kind of anchored knowing that when you create space for choice and you make choices that align with what you truly want in your life, that is freedom. And your choices look different than my choices. And then when you make choices that are truly aligned with your own vision, your own dreams, your own desires, there isn’t really anything to compare it to, actually, because it’s you that is driving the ship 100%.

Nina: And I love this discussion. Stacy. I say fall in love with your choices, people. You made the choice for a reason. Fall in love with the choice you make. Quit looking at whatever, like, playing the what if games, and like, what if I’d have done that or married that guy or stayed in Boise? Like, there are a lot of people in Boise who wish they’d had the adventure you’re having right now. Like, fall in love with the adventure you’ve created. But if we. If we can’t fall in love with the choices we make, I mean, we make them with what we have to work with in the moment. We make a choice, fall in love with that choice and go all in on it. That’s where joy comes from. This constantly looking at the other people. Comparison is the thief of joy.

Nina: You’ve heard that phrase. It is. Comparison is the thief of joy. Do not compare or worry. Like, just fall in love with your life. Fall in love with the choices you make. And if you make a choice and it doesn’t work, go in a different, make a new choice, keep going, Keep making choices with what you have to work with in that moment and make good choices. You, you know, always know what your values are and, you know, an idea of what you may want in life. But again, that’s going to change what I wanted in life in my 20s, very different from what I wanted in my life in my 30s. In my, in my 30s, I wanted success. In my 40s, I wanted some stability.

Nina: I had the kids at home and I needed a paycheck and like, I had to get through College. In my 50s, I wanted this, like, new. I wanted to give back and have this new adventure in the speaking space. My goals and what I wanted was different. What felt like success to me. Everything’s going to change as you go forward, but you have to fall in love with the choices you make. Because if you spend your time looking at other people’s choices and what they made, you will just suck the joy out of your life. And I do it. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve done it myself too. I mean, I’ve been married twice. Like, I don’t think I always got that right. But I love both the men in my life because they were wonderful chapters in my life.

Nina: Maybe, you know, my first husband, I got two great kids from him. Like, I have to kind of love that chapter of my life. I can’t regret that choice. I’m like, that was a choice I made. And there was some great stuff in there and I learned a lot about me and life and all the stuff. And then you go on to the next thing. There is a big piece of. If you meet people who are happy and have some happiness and some joy in their life, they are happy in their own life. They’re not comparing themselves to someone else. And I always say, I may not be everybody’s cup of tea. That took me a long time to get too. Like, I know I’m not for everybody. That’s okay. You do you.

Nina: You know, when my kids were little and my kids are gone, I have three Stacy. And they’re adulting now, which is the most amazing feeling. Once they all get out of college and you write that last check. Let me tell you, although I live.

Stacy: In Europe, so college expenses are not quite the same as, as, you know, hopefully, as long as they don’t decide to go to the U.S. Yeah.

Nina: Smart woman there. Yeah, I did not. Private colleges, out of state, all three of them. But I had made some choices that put us in a position for them to have that opportunity. So anyway, I used to tell my kids when they were young, and I still tell it to them now. My daughter is 25, she’s in New York. She works in AI, living the dream in New York. Just went to the X Games that. To X Games in Denver, like with her cute Little Scottish boyfriend, living the dream, but also has had her own share of tough times. And I do want to get to raising resilient kids. I do want to get to that, because you mentioned it, but I always told my kids when they were little, and I continue to tell them now, hey, go be you.

Nina: Everybody else has taken, you know, and. And it’s kind of like the Dr. Seuss or whatever. It’s my own take on all of that. And when they were little and go into, you know, elementary school, I’d say, hi, have a good day. Go be you. Everybody else is taken. Taken. And then middle school and then high school, same thing. And then when they went off to college, like, reinvent yourself. Like, be the next version of yourself. People there don’t even know who you are. Go be you. Everybody else is taken. Who do you want to be? Not what are you doing? Not go do a thing. But who do you want to being and doing it, like doing as a job, as a career is, well, who do you want to be as a human? Go be you. Everybody else is taken.

Nina: So that’s one of my favorite sayings when it comes to, you know, trying to figure out where you find some joy and some happiness in this weird, big, messy, marvelous life journey that we’re on.

Stacy: I like that framing. It’s a really nice way to think about it. And also I think it gives kids an orientation of choice as well, and who they decide they want to show up. As you mentioned, you brought it around to resilience and kids, which is what I open our conversation with. And it’s an interesting. It’s just been on my mind lately. This year, actually, end of last year, I started really paying attention to my kids and whether I felt they had developed resilience in their lives. I think what I arrived at is not yet. I think they’re so young still. They’re nine and almost 12. And of course, that’s something you develop through going through hardships throughout your life, usually. And it’s an interesting. It’s.

Stacy: It’s interesting in the stage that we’re in because a lot of that gets developed in their social relationships and their school experiences. My daughter goes to a Portuguese public school, and my son goes to a private British school, and his is very soft and gentle, and they have animals that live there and, you know, forest school and stuff. My daughter’s school is. And she went there too, but now she’s aged out, so she’s at the Portuguese school, my daughter’s school, the Portuguese Public system. There’s some things that I appreciate, but there are some things that are very challenging for me as an American being in this structure. And the biggest challenge that I have is that it’s very. It’s kind of antiquated in the.

Stacy: The severity of, like, the punitive system and kind of this expectation that kids just need to follow exactly everything that’s been told to them without deviating and just do it with utmost respect, you know, and that’s not necessarily my philosophy. I’m raising free thinkers that I think if they disagree, they should be able to push back and respectfully, but share their opinion and argue respectfully. And that’s how we run our house. But it’s been interesting because as we’ve been navigating this experience in this system, coaching her through what has been a challenge to get used to and still retain yourself who you are in a system that isn’t aligned necessarily. And that also, I think, is really fertile ground for developing resilience. So I’d love to hear your reflections, since this is something that you teach on.

Nina: Yeah, absolutely. Well, for. For a couple things. One, you’re in the thick of it with nine and 12. Like, this is peak parenting years. That’s what I call them, those middle school years.
Stacy: I feel it right now. I do feel it.

Nina: I always say, I like. You know, I like when they’re like toddlery age, you know, not baby babies, but toddlers. And then I love them again. I mean, I loved all of the years I love. But I love parenting toddlers when everything’s new and different. And then I love the high school years because then they’re people. You’d have real conversations. Middle school is one of the toughest because it’s just a lot. It is one of the toughest times. So more power to you. But a couple of things with that. When you said, I don’t. You don’t think they’re resilient. I will tell you without a doubt, without ever meeting your children, you have moved them several times, and they’ve had to give up you. They’ve had to give up their houses and their friends and move to new places. They’re resilient.

Stacy: Yeah, that’s true. That’s a good point.
Nina: Yeah, they are already resilient. And the fact that you’re having these conversations and saying, okay, this is a system you have to live within, because we live in a world where we can’t always just say what we want and push back. We have to live within systems. They’re already learning to be resilient. The definition of resilience, let me just back it up to that as we talk about parenting is your ability to adapt and grow stronger, to learn and grow stronger and adapt in a positive way to whatever happens in your life. That’s the definition of resilience. And let me, let me. People get this wrong all the time. They think it’s like persistence or grit. Persistence and grit are very different. Persistence is getting up and doing the same thing over and over, like never giving up.

Nina: That’s getting up again and never giving up. Grit is pushing through when things are really hard. Resilience is learning, growing stronger and adapting in a positive way to whatever happens in your life. That learn, grow. That is, it’s very different. Like, think, and I hate to put this out there for people don’t even like talking about them. Oh, look, think about 2020, when you were like in the beginning of 2020, when the pandemic hit, we all had like, New Year’s resolutions and things. We were going to do whatever you were doing at the moment. And then you couldn’t just double down and go hard and have persistence through that year. Right. Because the world changed. We all had to adapt and figure out a new way to do things with a different world around us.

Nina: Grit and persistence were not going to get you through 2020 and have you, have success. You had to be resilient. You had to adapt and grow. So that’s if you need to think about what the difference between them is. So when you’re raising resilient kids, it’s their ability to adapt and learn and grow stronger from the things around them you’ve taught. Like when they had to move, you know, that’s a change. They had to adapt and learn and grow. They’re already more resilient. They’re in a new school now. They’re adapting and learning and growing. They’re not always getting along with their teachers and having to figure it out. Adapting, learning, growing, where people make mistakes.
Nina: And when you know you’re not raising resilient kids is when you don’t let them fail or don’t let them struggle or don’t let them go through a challenge and you jump in and fix it for them. Those helicopter moms or whatever, the phrases that people have now, I don’t even know what phrase it is now. There’s some big ones out there, but bulldozers, like, if you go in and fix the problems, letting your children fail is really hard to do. I Mean, it’s really hard. I remember instances with all three of mine where I had to just let them sit in it and go, yep, this super sucks. This is. This is what happened. This is so bad. This is so sucky. Like, when my daughter would rehearse really hard for a part in the Nutcracker.

Nina: She was a gymnast like me, but then she became a ballerina. Very good ballerina. She danced with Joffrey in New York in the summers, like, all into it. And then she would rehearse, you know, an audition for a part, and she wouldn’t get it. And, you know, I wasn’t the mom that was going to go, hey, my kid’s better. Let’s have a discuss. No, you didn’t get it. Sit in. It super sucks. Sorry. Try again next year. Like, or the first time she applied to a college and she didn’t get. She didn’t get early admission. She didn’t even get a no, she just didn’t get early admission. And choose in a puddle on the ground thinking, they don’t want me. I was like, no, get out of the fetal position. Like, they’re just.

Nina: It’s just early, you know, early acceptance to one of the toughest schools that you chose, you know, give it a minute and look at all these other schools that do want you know? But no, all she could see was that. And I had to just kind of let her sit in it and go, yeah, you. You didn’t get into the early acceptance in this one school. Now within an hour, she was like, screw them. I don’t want to go there anyway. Like. Like, she did the work in her head and got there, and she went to a different college and loved it and had a great experience. But letting. Like, I wasn’t going to go, no, we’re going to call that school and get you in now. We have to let our children fail, whether it’s riding a bike and letting them fall or.
Nina: Or getting in an argument with a friend and going, hey, you need to go apologize and go figure it out. Like. Like, you have to figure it out. I’m not going to call their mom and figure it out for you. We have to let our kids fail. We have to let them screw up, fail tests, blow up their friendships with it, you know, so they can learn how to do it right. That’s my biggest. When it comes to resilience, and we look at the true definition of it, that’s where we can build resilient kids. That my kids have all been through some big Things at this point. Even stuff in college where they called home and like, I just ruined my whole life. I’m like, yeah, I’m pretty sure you didn’t, you know. Well, let’s.

Nina: I couldn’t say that, but it’s like, no, you just really screwed up and wow, that was dumb. You know, let’s. But this is going to be a story you tell later. Doesn’t feel funny now, but I going to be funny later. Or let’s figure out how to get you through it. This is a screw up. This is a bad chapter of your life. This is super. You know, it’s a sucky few pages in the story of your life. But it’s not the whole thing. You know, let’s learn from it and move forward. That’s resilience. That’s how you let your kids be resilient. You can’t, you have to kind of let them screw up and fail and, you know, jump in and be around the wrong people sometimes and figure it out, hey, those aren’t my people. All those things.

Stacy: It seems like good advice for ourselves as well is, you know, being willing to jump in and fail. And I think as we get older and maybe a little more jaded with the various life experiences we’ve had, it’s easy to not take risk, not try new things. But we also are always a work in progress at every single age, whether you’re 30 or 90, have every opportunity. So it’s beautiful advice for kids, but also I think for us as adults as well.

Nina: Oh, myself included. I’m in my later 50s now and I still have like, I just had my January of this year did not go as planned and I’ve got a regroup because I screwed up a couple things. I also got in an argument with one of my good friends. Like, it doesn’t go anywhere, folks. It’s, it’s a lifetime of learning and growing and figuring out who you are and where you fit in. It’s, it’s part of the big, messy, marvelous life we live. It’s, it’s. You get good at it after a while. You just get more comfortable with who you are and you get good with screwing up. Like I’m looking at that going, well, that was a really bad idea and a waste of money. But oh well, I learned that lesson the hard way.

Nina: I can’t get that money back or that time and that bombed.

Stacy: It is a muscle though. I feel that you know, you keep up over time that you’re you if you don’t practice taking even micro risks or putting yourself in uncomfortable situations, then it’s like that muscle can atrophy. So I think living a life where you do screw up, like you should be screwing up, hopefully not to. To hurt people or hurt yourself, but you should be making mistakes because that’s part of the experience of life. So I love that you’re also still experiencing that. Imagine that’ll continue on into infinity.

Nina: You will.

Stacy: You have so many cool things that you’re working on right now. I know you’re in the process of rewriting. I don’t know what level of rewriting you’re doing on your book. Kind of recasting, revamping one of your two books. I’d love to hear a little bit about that, what you’re working on with that, and anything else that you’re excited about in your work and life at the moment.
Nina: Yeah, Stacy, I should be asking for your advice on the re. Somethinging. I don’t know if it’s a revamp or a rewrite or a re. What. So you’re right on track with trying to figure that out with me. I do want to do an updated version, let’s just say, of my second book. My second book is. But I want both. A Working mom’s Guide to Living a life she loves. And it’s all about when your career takes off at the same time, when you decide to start a family. That’s just. It’s a very tough time in a young person’s life. And I was mentoring a lot of young women at the time that the pandemic hit.

Nina: And they all said, oh, Nina, we can’t go, like, hang out and drink wine with you and you can tell us that we’re going to be okay and we don’t suck, so can you, like, write it down for us? So I. That was this. This book was a labor of love and kind of. I had the pictures of these women, these young women on my wall as I was writing it, but it got too wordy. And it’s also pre pandemic and the world has changed. So I do want to take that book and skinny it down. I don’t. I like a short book. Short books, hard to write. But in the self help space, I’m all about a short book. So I want to, you know, skinny it down.

Nina: I don’t like the COVID I want to make it a little more gender neutral because men have this issue too when they start families. And that’s really changed in the last 20 years as men. It became more of, you know, running households. So I just want to rethink that. So I don’t know what the answer is. I know I. I do have a new cover design that I’ve been working on. I think part of me is like, do I just throw it in chat GPT and say add some pen? You know, please don’t do that. Well, that was my thing when I did. When I wrote it. Yeah, when that, when I wrote it. But seriously, I had that thought. I’m like, do I just go, hey, make this more current?

Stacy: Like no, please don’t do that.

Nina: Okay, well, good. Thank you for telling me that. Because that would be the easy route and then hiring somebody to make a new cover. I could just do a slapj it but. But I’m not sure what to do with it. I don’t want to write a whole new one. I just want to make this one better because I have a new book I want to folk. I have an idea. But this one, I feel like it’s still valuable, but it, I don’t. I’m not proud of it. So I want to make myself more proud of it so I can push it a little harder and help people with it.

Stacy: Yeah, well, I mean you have a couple options on that one. Could be you hire what’s known as a manuscript review. So you’d hire an editor to do a read through and give you high level feedback, editorial direction, chapter by chapter feedback and page by page commentary for you to guide your revision. The other side of that would better, probably use of your time in some ways would be to hire an editorial partner to actually come in and shape it into the way that you want it. So basically they would come in, work with you and do a lot of the heavy lifting to trim it down. I think it’s nice to bring in somebody from the outside because they have a different perspective and they’re working from the lens as a reader advocate.

Stacy:Somebody that’s in there to really bring it to life for the reader. If it were me, that’s probably what I would do would be to bring in a partner like an editor on the project.

Nina: That is great to know. Where do you find somebody like that? Just while I’m, while I’m switching the tables and having an interviewing view for my podcast. Where do I find someone like that?

Stacy: Well, I will be happy to send you a few names of people that I trust. But there’s also for anybody listening, there’s a marketplace that we’ll be sure to link to. Called reedsy that has. It’s really well vetted, and they have. You can, like, put your project on there and query aligned editors so they’ll kind of match you with editors. So that can be one way. But one of my favorite ways to find an editor because it can be so specific to your needs on a book. So, for example, if you are. Let’s say you’re a woman of color writing to other women of color, and you want to have an editor who is a woman of color and has worked on leadership, let’s say it’s a leadership book. Leadership books, and you have read a couple that you really loved.

Stacy: I would go to those books. I would look in the acknowledgment section, find who their editor is, and it’s okay if they work at Penguin because a lot of them freelance and reach out to them directly. Or if you’ve read a book that you really love and you can’t find the name on the publication page or in the acknowledgments, email the author and ask them if they’re willing to share the editor with you.

Nina: Brilliant. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

Stacy: Yeah, it’s a little tempting, but it’s a good way to find editors.

Nina: I was a journalist. I like a little sleuthing. I’m all for that. Yeah.

Stacy: Then the other. The other thing that you’d have to be mindful of is that you will probably be working with a developmental editor or a substantive editor, so that they sometimes call it content editing. So that would be the type of editor that you’d be looking for, which is a little different than copy editing or proofreading, which is more production editing. So that’s good to know for languaging when you go to.

Nina: When I go look editor.

Stacy:Yeah. But I think that could make it really fun, too, so that you don’t feel like you’re, you know, just on your own trying to wrangle this book into a shape that you feel great about, but you have, like, creative energy around it and partnership and, you know, like to make it joyful and. And fun to bring it to market.

Nina: Yes. I don’t want to make it into some big this. So I do need to pull in a better human to make that. See, I can use my own framework to make this an easier project. Yeah.

Stacy: Oh, I love that. You could totally use your framework for that.

Nina: I need to pull in some humans. Yes.

Stacy: Yes. Yeah. I think partnership is such a powerful for anything, any major goal and Also accountability because it drives forward the getting it to market.

Nina: Right.

Stacy: Like otherwise it could just drag and drag and drag.

Nina: Right.

Stacy: Well, that’s exciting. You have to keep me posted on what you.

Nina: I will, I will. And on that note, it kind of segues right into the other part of your question of what I’m excited about right now. Because I’m not excited about the book yet. I just want to do it. Well, that’s right.

Stacy: After this conversation you’re going to get excited. Yes.

Nina: Yeah. And more and more. But the other thing I am excited about is I just launched and I brought in a younger, more creative human than me in her 20s to kind of help me launch this because it’s for a younger audience, but it will apply to anyone. I launched a workshop and it’s called the now what Workshop for people who are going through those now what moments in their life. Like, I just got fired, I just got divorced. I just had this horrible thing happen to me. I just got caught up in this scandal, whatever it is. It’s called the now what workshop and we just launched that. So that’s the other thing I’m really excited about is putting that out into the world. It’s self guided. Do it your. Because people don’t want to like be face to face.

Nina: They kind of need that privacy to go through a moment. And you know, I was really pushed back against doing something like that for a long time because I’m a big proponent of therapy and get a licensed clinical therapist if you need help. I truly believe that is what is needed when you’re going through a difficult time. I, I’m a big fan. Yeah, get a license. That’s not me. It’s not my wheelhouse. That’s not me. But this people kept after I would speak and stuff, they would say, can you just put it all out there and explain it more? So this is just me going, okay, this happened. Let me just get you to a better spot so you don’t do something drastic or take a really, you know, bad, you know, turn or get stuck where you are right now.

Nina: Let me help you not get stuck in this really crappy moment in your life. And that’s what the now what workshop is. And we just launched that. And it’s me on camera and some worksheets and some ideas and it’s, it’s really fun and it’s with it what’s kind of fun too. And you’ll like this. As a book editor, when I first Put my first book out. This is not the end. I went to a publisher who said you had to take. I had to take the curse words out because my. My publisher did had some other parameters and said you couldn’t curse. So I had one challenge myself to come up with ways to say the things I wanted to without cursing. But two, I have the old version.

Nina: So in the now what Workshop, I offer the unedited, unabridged, really crass version of it, which is kind of fun too, which someone suggested I do. That’s very. Yeah, it’s. It’s very. It’s very ridicul. But anyway, that’s, that’s what I’m excited about right now, is putting that out into the world in a meaningful way.

Stacy: That’s great. We will be sure to link to that in our show notes so that people can find that. Where. Where can people find you and learn more about you, Follow along in your work and all the things you’re putting out into the world?

Nina: I would love that. Yeah. Instagram’s the best place I. I put out daily motivation. I think motivation and inspiration. Kind of like a shower. You can’t just do it once. Like, we need to keep doing it. So on Instagram, on Nina Speaks. Nina S, P E A K S. It’s split up. There are other speakers named Nina, but it’s Nina Speaks. And you can follow me there on LinkedIn if your organization or your company needs someone, speak at a conference or do a workshop. I do really fun stuff around that and I’m really proud of that work. You can find me on LinkedIn. I just started doing some stuff on Tik Tok because again, I brought in this young person and I. I think I’m hilarious. I put some funny things out there.

Nina:I have yet to really lean into it, but we shall see where that goes. But yeah, and I’m on face. I’m. I’m all over social media, wherever you want to follow me, but Instagram is where I. Where I’m more focused right now.

Stacy: Well, we’ll. Again, we’ll be sure to link to all the things so people can find you. But wow, thank you for this conversation. I. Such insights that I’ve already taken away so much. I’m sure our listeners have as well. And I just really appreciate your time and energy today.

Nina: Stacy, it was a pleasure to meet you. Thank you for having me on and trusting me with your listeners and all the best to you and to everybody listening. It’s okay to not be okay. It’s just not okay to stay that way. And I wish you, Stacy and everybody all the best. Thanks for having me on.

Stacy: Such a pleasure. And thank you to you, our listener, for staying with us today, listening. And I hope that you maybe were reached in a way that you needed to be today or got something actionable that you can apply or maybe this is something you’ll share with a friend. Thank you as always to Rita Domingues for her production of this podcast. I know I say this every week, but I’m telling you would not be listening to this without her. She does everything to make all the things happen and I am so grateful. If you have 20, 30 seconds right now to rate and review this podcast, I would be really grateful. It makes a huge, huge difference in my ability to reach more listeners with the message of living a life that’s not just better, but beyond better.

Stacy: And I will be back with you before you know it.