Transcripts for Episode 121

These transcripts were generated by robots, not writers.

Catherine: A lot of what you as a book coach are helping with is, yes, the strategy, yes, the author platform and big picture vision. But also I think a huge part of it, beyond accountability, is also having, there’s moments of insane self doubt that come in whenever anyone’s writing a book, especially if they’ve never done it for, and I think you can hold that idea for them of there’s this finish line, you have this process. All they need to do is really trust your process and show up and do the work.

And then by the end, oh my gosh, there’s actually a draft here, and we’ve talked about this a lot, is this idea that, oh, the artist is just supposed to go up into a cabin and inspiration is going to strike and they’re going to write madly for three days straight and they’re going to have their book. And that’s just not how it works, especially in this world. And especially if that might work for people who have been writing for 50 years, and that’s all they do. But for people who have never written a book, and this is them sharing their knowledge with the world, working with someone in partnership to flesh out those ideas, have that thought. Partnership with someone is extremely valuable.

Stacy: Welcome to our first guest interview of 2024, and it’s a very special guest that I will introduce you to in just a moment. But I am also only on my second day back from taking a nice long holiday with my family.

We had such a restful time together. We had my best friend came into town. We had other friends that came into town. We went to the beach a bunch. We went on hikes. We read books together. Just like quiet, all of us reading our own books. It was so lovely. And coming into 2024, I’m feeling so energized, like, I don’t know, I needed that rest. And I think just quietness off screens with my family in nature. And I don’t know about you, but this year is already feeling like all the abundance everywhere. So I hope that you are feeling the same way. Today’s guest is going to get to talk a little bit more about some of the abundance ahead of us in the business because she is part of my team and I’m really excited to introduce you to Catherine Fishman.

Catherine is a ghostwriter, book coach and publishing consultant. She helps with any step of the book writing process from book idea through production. As a lifelong learner and seeker, she taps into both the practical and the creative, balancing the nitty gritty with the magical as she works with warm hearted healers, adventurers, innovators and downright inspirational people to share their stories with the world. Welcome, Catherine. I’m so excited for this interview.

Catherine: Me, too. Thank you for having me.

Stacy: I say interview, but it’s really more of a conversation today because you and I have worked together for a really long time. And as I mentioned in the introduction, you’re on my team. You also have your own business where you support people through the self publishing process. I would love for you to give a little bit of your background, how you got into the world of publishing, and maybe you could tell a little bit of our story as well, how we’ve worked together and some of those evolutions that you’ve been through and that we’ve been through over the last several years of working together.

Catherine: I think that they are connected, so that works perfectly. I would say you and I, gosh, how long has it been now? We’re in 2024, so I think eight years is what we’re coming on. Does that sound right?

Stacy: Eight? Crazy. Yeah, that does sound right. I had seven in my head, but I think I lost like six months to moving to Thailand when we first started working together. I think eight’s right.

Catherine: So, yeah, seven years. We’ll say seven came on know. I was a personal assistant at the time, and executive assistant and from able I was really excited to start working with you because I had this interest in the book world and writing. I was able to kind of figure out some interests and maybe even some needs in the industry. So along with you, I started to understand this book coaching world and started to have opportunities to do that on my own as well. And I started to see that in your world as well as my world, there was kind of this lack or need, I guess, for an option that wasn’t hybrid publishing or traditional publishing or the subsidy publishing, but was something that I could give my clients that would work for them. I’ll hold off from going too far into that route, but it really came from a need to have a solution for people that I was writing their books for them or helping them through.

I thought it was just a terrible thought to go through all the work of actually getting this book together and then just kind of sending them on their merry way and wishing them luck. So this was a way I kind of found education and resources to figure out what a self publishing option could look like. For those who maybe budget wise, or even just alignment wise, it made more sense for them to go that route.

Stacy: Yeah. I love that you focused in that area. I know. For me, I’ve always been so narrowly focused in the writing and that idea to draft. And so it’s been amazing having you as a resource, as somebody who really understands self publishing, not just the kind of strategy behind it, but all of those little nitty gritty nuance pieces that you have to stay up on. It’s such an evolving area, and I think I especially appreciate, because of our work together, I think we both have. Well, let me back up a little bit. One of the things that I really admire about you is that you are a lifelong learner. You are super organized, you care a whole lot. And so in our work together, I think we have so much alignment in how we show up for people and how we care for people.

And I think we both also have such a deep interest in really supporting people who have something to offer the world that is like a positive, a net positive of their work. Being in the world is making the world a better place. I’d love to talk a little bit about the difference in the work that you and I do, both within my team, but also supporting people in publishing, because I think this is really important. And I don’t think that a lot of people really know the importance of getting niche support. When you’re working on a book that is part of your business, it’s part of your brand or it’s part of your bigger impact because there is a lot of strategy to that.

When I’m explaining it to people, I say, okay, you’re here today, or point a, you want to go to point b. And so you have five book ideas, five books that you could write, or maybe you don’t even have a clue yet what that book would be. But we’re not looking for the one perfect book. We’re looking for the right book for right now. That’s going to bring you on the trajectory to point B. So what is that book? And that’s what we’re looking to uncover. But not just that. It also has to be well done. It can’t be. I get so frustrated because I’m retargeted every day by these quote unquote experts who say, write a book in 30 days, they’re like, literally they’re telling people to publish, write, edit and publish a book in 60 days. I’m like, no.

So talk a little bit about that because I think that feels really shiny to people that they’re like, oh, all I need to do is just get this business card book out. And that’s just not what we do. Can you talk a little bit about that? And what should people understand when they are looking for help and thinking about how this book fits into their bigger strategy?

Catherine: Yeah, I think the top thing is that you have to constantly remind yourself that this book is a reflection of you and your brand. So given that my philosophy, and I think we share this, is that should be the highest quality, most professional book you could have created. And so that’s always my goal. And that’s what I tell people outright. I want to create a book that does not look self published. Actually, I would like it to be impossible for a layman to tell that this book has been self published. And what does that mean? That means working with high quality vendors, editors, designers, not skipping any parts of the process. I will say that I think as especially working with business people, they’re pretty goal oriented. They know what they want to do.

They have a timeline in mind of how long it’s supposed to take. And I think that’s why sometimes these shiny offers can feel really appealing, because it’s like, oh, okay, great, that fits in by q four. I have this. And really, honestly, to create a good quality book that’s going to be out there forever. It’s going to require time. You have to take the time it takes. And almost every single client I’ve had that I’ve guided through the self publishing process has said, oh, this took way longer than I thought. And it’s because all those errors that possibly could have made it out there. I’m very committed to not having that happen, as is my designer. I mean, I just had a project where the designer was like, no, we had someone who had worked with their own editors, which I do not recommend.

Now, I’m usually very strict about using the editors that I trust because it is kind of a wild west out there with people who work in publishing. They seem professional and good, but you never know what the quality is going to be. So my number one tip is making sure you’re really working with high quality vendors who have been in the business for a while and are the ones that I work with have had experience with traditional publishers. They know kind of what the norms are. So that’s number one. And then number two is, do not rush. Do not rush any part of the process. Take the time with it. I understand timelines and goals and deadlines, but do it right is how I approach it.

Stacy: Such good advice. I hope anybody listening to this, it’s so important to take your time. But on that same note, it’s also good to know that you don’t have to do it super fast. And actually, that’s not the best way to do it. I typically recommend, if you’re on a relatively aggressive timeline, I usually suggest 18 months from idea to publication. And that’s because the actual writing of the book and editing, if you give that nine months fully to completed draft ready for production, that’s actually a pretty intense time frame. And in my humble opinion, you need some support to accomplish that and do a really great job. And then you need a good solid nine months to produce and launch that book, and to do it really thoughtfully with the right level of time, investment, energy, people can do it faster.

Certainly I’ve worked on much faster projects, but I think reasonably that is a good timeframe for most people to come to it with. And I was thinking too, as you were talking, I’ve been in Portugal now for four and a half years, and my portuguese is still very basic. I can understand a lot, but I really freeze up when I go to speak, and I think of the book world as very similar to learning a language. So this year I’m like, dang it, this is going to be the year I can at least have basic, functional. I can get around. I can have conversations. And so what did I do? Well, I found an educational resource that I’m listening to a little bit every day. I’m not setting such a lofty goal that I’m setting myself up for failure to not accomplish it.

Life stacking. So I’m learning while I’m doing laundry and doing other things. And then I signed up for a weekly conversation class that I physically go to in person because I’ve tried online with language, it’s not so easy. And so I have all of these structures built in place. And so I’d love to talk a little bit about how do we support people in that writing process in a similar way, because I think a lot of people are shocked that this is an option. I see a lot on social media, especially on Instagram. When some of my clients tag me, they’ll go a book coach. I didn’t even know that exists. So maybe you can share a little bit because you are so interwoven into all the things we do.

In fact, you’ve been there through all the iterations of how we serve and support people. We’re about to guide a group of authors through a six month process of writing their books. So can you share a little bit from your perspective and your insights as an expert who is also waiting for those books to be shepherded, your direction, what that process is like and what you’ve seen for our clients that have gone through the program or private coaching?

Catherine: Yeah, I think you were hitting on this idea of working with an expert, someone who’s been there, someone who knows all the unknowns. And I think, as you mentioned, you really focus on the writing process. That is your bread and butter. That is what you are passionate about and what you love to do. And that has been since day one. And I think that a lot of what you as a book coach are helping with is, yes, the strategy, yes, the author platform and big picture vision. But also, I think a huge part of it, beyond accountability, is also having, there’s moments of insane self doubt that come in whenever anyone’s writing a book, especially if they’ve never done it before. And I think you can hold that idea for them of, there’s this finish line, you have this process.

All they need to do is really trust your process and show up and do the work. And then by the end, oh, my gosh, there’s actually a draft here.

We’ve talked about this a lot. Is this idea that, oh, the artist is just supposed to go up into a cabin and inspiration is going to strike and they’re going to write madly for three days straight and they’re going to have their book. And that’s just not how it works, especially in this world. And especially if that might work for people who have been writing for 50 years and that’s all they do. But for people who have never written a book, and this is them sharing their knowledge with the world, working with someone in partnership to flesh out those ideas, have that thought. Partnership with someone is extremely valuable. I mean, so many light bulbs, I know you’ve seen it in your clients go off in those conversations and in the reflection on the content that they have written.

So I think that is just invaluable in terms of saving time and money. I think it’s the smartest decision you can make. If you’re someone who’s in business and has this idea and this knowledge to share, that’s going to help build your business and your brand and also help you really hone in and solidify whether it’s a methodology or just your set of principles that you’re offering. That then goes to if you’re a consultant or a coach, helps you in your own business and in your offering. So we’ve talked about that, how it helps provide clarity and direction in a way that really, I think only a book can because it requires you to very much condense your content into something that anyone can understand. So, yes, I would say that is where it’s massive.

You have this structure and this process that guides them through that they can just in those times when they’re not sure is this going to work, they just can trust. And there’s this trust fall situation. And I think as I’ve spoken to plenty of book coaching clients and that’s what they always say on the other end is, okay, I wasn’t sure about at this point why this wasn’t happening or whatever, and you and I together and you obviously heralding that, have come up with this process that is tried and true and just continues to work for people. Yeah. And then with this program idea to draft, I think that it is just, I’m so excited by it because I think it is our strongest program yet. It is really honoring the need for a solid amount of time.

Just like with your coaching clients, there’s this period of time that is needed in order to actually get clear and understand your thoughts and be able to work with it and flesh it out. And we’re always providing value through things like outline reviews, and feedback. And really, I think just you and I and the team are so committed to actually helping people accomplish this goal. This is not just come in 30 days. We just want to have you create a product. It’s no, we actually would like you to create a high quality, good book that is actually going to be impactful for people.

Stacy: Everything and all of that was all of the things. One thing I was thinking about, and specifically what I so value about you, is that you come in also with this publishing perspective, and we provide the education around the next steps. And this is consistently what I hear from people like yourself who support the self publishing process and also hybrid publishers. They come back to me and they say, you do such an amazing job. By the time they come to us, they understand what’s coming, rather than what often happens when you get into this is you do one step of it, and then you kind of lift your head up like you’re like, panting because you just got done with this crazy process. And then you’re like, oh, and I have more than halfway to go still. Okay.

And then you get the next one and you’re like, oh, I didn’t know that existed. You have all these things ahead of you. And so having a more holistic approach. While I have chosen not to focus on publishing as supporting people through the publishing process, my whole life has been devoted to writing. That’s where I want to stay. At least it’s not like, while we focus on that piece, we are very mindful of all of the other pieces that are to come. And in the program specifically, I bring in PR experts, I bring in different people that are supporting also and understanding all the different things that are coming. And this is a little tangential, but I have to tell the story before I forget.

I was thinking, when you and I first started working together, do you remember how my publisher for my first book went under and you came in and I was like, I don’t know how to do this, but can you please republish this book for me? And I don’t think you had ever done anything like that either. And it’s funny because that was probably about. It had to be eight years ago, Catherine. We should have done the math before we started this episode. But that’s got to be right, because my book came out in 2013, and the publisher went out not too long after that. I mean, it was like, maybe a year or two later. And it’s funny because you and I came out of that with two very different responses.

Mine was, get me as far away from that process as I could ever get away from. And yours apparently was like, let me build my whole life and business around this. So it’s been cool to see that you’ve taken that and that we can bring that unique perspective. And when somebody has a really specific question, and we do make sure to bring you into, especially some of the later sessions, so that when people have questions and they’re maybe looking at a proposal from an editor, and we’re talking about that, or they’re considering self publishing versus hybrid publishing, we’re talking about those things. And we really have not just you, not just me, but we also have Rita on the team, who is an incredible designer and marketer. We’ve got Robin, who’s a writer, and Kim, who’s an editor. So we have so many resources.

I just think that is really special. I do want to add one thing.

Catherine: Which is know I love your division of the creation and production process. Right? It’s like, okay, you stay staunchly in this creation part, but giving an outlook of what’s coming up in production. And I think I just want to give credit to having worked with you and experiencing that process and seeing how, of course, parts of the publishing process are really annoying and frustrating, just like anything, really. But I would say to me, it’s just so inspiring to actually see the book get out there. You and I have talked about how, gosh, I mean, it really can. Some people have this approach of, like, done is better than. What’s that saying?

Stacy: Perfect?

Catherine: Yeah, done is better than perfect. And I think we’re like, we would like it to be both excellent.

Stacy: I think that’s the bar that we’ve set, is excellence.

Catherine: Right?

Stacy: Do the best that you can with the resources that you have, but do a great job at it.

Catherine: Right. And be confident that this thing can live out there without you having to go back and review it or change it or, oh, I don’t love it. But I feel like through working with you is, I saw kind of what that moment is like. I mean, getting these emails from people, actually getting the book out there and how exciting that is for them and how it impacts their business. And that’s why I was like, ooh, I like that. I like that it actually gets out there. And I saw that in my own business while I was ghost writing and just kind of handing it over a.

Stacy: Year or two later, I’d be like.

Catherine: So where is it? And they’re like, oh, well, I’m not sure. So just helping people kind of get to the finish line is really rewarding.

Stacy: Yeah, I love that. And I think on my end, I do end up staying in touch with people the whole time. But I love that I can hand it off. And also, it’s like, I kind of think about it like a specialist surgeon, where if you really focus on the heart and you’re a heart surgeon and you become excellent at that, then you really can be the best at that thing. Whereas if I tried to learn the whole body and specialize in everything, I don’t think you can truly, fully specialize in anything. And I love that you see this other piece of it and that inspires you and that’s exciting to you. And it is a real need. People need support. I would never self publish without help, ever, in a million years. I also would.

Even as an expert book writer, I’ve written 17 books. I’m working on number 18. I’ve done all this for a long time. I know what I’m doing. I still hire support when I’m working on a book. Even me. I get an expert I trust to review my outline. I get feedback on my draft. And if I were earlier on, I 100% would hire a coach. I think those are the things that it’s like you can dance around, spin, and make a bunch, like a mess of it, basically for literally ten years I’ve seen this. Or you can get that support. And I think it’s good to know that it’s available all along the way, that it’s available early, it’s available in the production phase, which is where you’re especially great at, and it’s also available later.

With marketing, there’s other people that can support you there, too. Yes, there are investments along the way, 100%, but also, it’s not all being paid at one time. So if you’re thinking about that whole process and putting together both your timeline and your budget and considering that really it is about getting started and making that momentum and then also knowing what’s coming so that you’re not surprised or you don’t deplete yourself along the way, like, you know that more is coming and it’s a marathon, not a sprint. I’m curious to hear from you a little bit on what you have noticed in the book writing process that sets people up for success later on when they go into that next phase. Because it is a big, we have the production, we have the marketing and the ongoing marketing.

There’s not just like the launch and that roughly 90 day window around it or 180 day window, I should say, around it. But there’s like the further ongoing life of that book that will hopefully be shelf stable. So what have you seen in that first stage that enables them to then approach the next stage and be able to, I guess, save time, money, energy and do a really great job with those future elements?

Catherine: Yeah. Two things. One, I would say, is some form of author platform already established. If that can be done in tandem, you don’t have to go full on obsessed with it, but I think it can kind of be. I think most people who are in business probably already have that set up. So that’s really nice. But I think that there being some sort of familiarity or at least an eagerness when you’re coming in. You have to understand if you’re self publishing or just any honestly, with any publisher now, the reality is that you’re going to need to do marketing for your book, some form of it, right. And there’s varying degrees and levels, but you are your brand. Right. And the other piece is, I would say, and we’re talking specifically about nonfiction books as a reminder. Right. So that’s important.

Fiction is not the same as nonfiction. And I actually was thinking this while you were talking, which was that particularly. It’s helpful to get a book coach for nonfiction books because it needs to make sense to people other than you and not in a plot hole way. We’re talking about concepts and big ideas a lot of the time, thought leadership pieces. It may make total sense to you and maybe the clientele that you’ve worked with. But what if we’re trying to call in a different set or be a wider in the way that we’re approaching the concepts? That’s where book coaching is so important, which leads me to a huge part of your process, which is the outline.

And I think for nonfiction books, if you don’t have an outline, you can fall into that trap of like, well, here’s a chunk of knowledge, and here’s a chunk of knowledge, and here’s a chunk, and you kind of just string it together by the fact that it’s in one book, and that’s not really enough to take the reader on the journey, have them have a solid understanding of what it is they are going to get from reading this book. And that’s actually really huge in the marketing piece, too. That all informs how we’re going to market the book. So the reader really needs to know what the promise is of this book and why they’re even picking it up in the first place.

So I think the clarity in the writing process and the outlining process and really understanding who this book is for, why they need it. What are these pain points that you’re solving then with the marketing? It just kind of is like, click. Especially in our process, putting together the book concept document, we just pull from that as we’re putting together the marketing versus someone who’s coming without any of that. Now, we’re kind of trying to round up something, go into the past, whereas I think going through your program, they’re really set up to kind of, they’re doing a lot of the hard work in the beginning versus it just being hard the whole time. So I think that’s a difference that I see because I have some clients who come, they did their own thing and they need so much more editing.

They got to pay for more editing. They are not super clear about who this is for. Which always scares me a little bit because I’m like, well, then what is this book? It’s always a sign to me that obviously they needed some more direction, which I think you get to avoid those pitfalls by going through a book writing program like this.

Stacy: You mentioned an outline and the book concept, which are two just really crucial pieces in the process that I teach, acknowledging that everybody has different brains and different needs. So I never will say that this is the end all, be all, but I try to provide a good step by step process that can be adapted to individual people’s needs for their particular books. But what you mentioned specifically is the book concept and having a really strong sense of your reader and your core message of your book, which should fully align with the vision that you have for your business or your brand for your impact. And so part of what we do really is largely strategy and very much aligned with how you’re going to market this later. It’s getting really clear on all of that at the beginning.

Now, that’s not to say that sometimes you uncover and discover things as you go along. And sometimes I often find this doesn’t happen a lot, but it happens sometimes. Somebody might get to chapter three and they’re like, I thought this book was about this. This actually just happened with a private client. We came in with this one book, this one message. The reader stayed the same, but this person’s business and brand shifted. And so it actually wasn’t a big pivot for this person in this book. It was more like some of the language and tweaking. We redid the audience and we reoriented the book going forward. We ended up killing a whole chapter and joining a couple together, that is one bonus of working privately is you can get that hands on.

But most of the time we get a really good sense of all of it at the outset, especially if you’re pretty clear on your business, you’re pretty clear on your brand. Not everybody comes in with a crystal clear vision, but we actually start with that in the work that we do. So those pieces are so important. And you’re right. They pull into marketing, they pull into the production process. They feed into the editorial process. They help orient your editor. They help guide your publishing consultant or your publisher that you’re working with. So all of that, the last thing I’d love touch on is our celebration, the way that we celebrate as a team, because probably many listeners don’t know that. I have been in business for 14 years. You’ve been in business for a long time as well.

You’ve been part of my team for. That’s interesting. You’ve been in it more than half of the time that I’ve been in business. That’s crazy. And I think that, let me say it this way, the longer I have been a grown up and the longer I’ve been a business, the more honestly I get disappointed by things that I invest in. I invest my time, my energy, even my relationship, like me as a person, my friendship. And I think I’m continually surprised that people don’t show up with full care and full commitment to the things that they do. And that’s one of the things that I have always appreciated about you, is that you really care. I really care. Rita, who is here but not on this episode producing this podcast, really cares. So does Robin. So does Kim.

So does Katiane, who’s also on the team in admin capacity. We all really care, and we celebrate people. And most of our clients have no clue that this even happens. We have on WhatsApp. We celebrate when people’s books come out. We celebrate new clients. I’d love to talk a little bit about that atmosphere of celebration that we’ve nurtured within the team and why that matters to our ability to really show up for people. So what are your thoughts and reflections on that?

Catherine: I think that celebration is so important, especially for this kind of huge feat. Even like many celebrations at different parts in the process, even just signing on. Right. Like there’s these different milestones that we are constantly celebrating, and it helps generate this momentum and keep going. And I think that when you’re trying to do it alone, you just in your head with yourself or, I don’t know, maybe your spouse or someone that’s not quite the same as a team of women being like, yes, okay, onto the next step. This is so wonderful. And being able to provide that feedback. And it’s interesting. It reminds me of this experience I just had with, I’m guiding an author through an arc process, and they’re getting these reviews come in.

Stacy: Can you define that, by the way, Catherine? Because I’m guessing most people won’t know what an arc is. Yeah.

Catherine: Arc is Advanced Reader copy. And so the idea is you’re sending out this copy in hopes that you’re going to get endorsements back, and then you use the know on the back cover, potentially, or inside or just marketing wise. So this client, this author was, he’s in the middle of this, and he’s been starting to get these endorsements back, and it’s just kind of this validation. He’s like, okay, this is a really good book. Oh, my gosh. And so to have people on your side, on your team, who are recognizing what a good quality product this is and how this is actually really needed, that goes a long way further than I think you realize as you’re in the process of book coaching, for example, or in a program.

I think that helps to generate the momentum, because writing a book and then publishing a book are both hard. They require a lot of time and energy. I would say even more energy than time, because even if you’re going to hire professionals, you still have to put in the effort of making choices and wanting to really be proud of this thing that you’re creating. Take ownership in it. And so I think that we’ve nurtured an environment that makes that as easy as possible for the author to really embrace, because we’re very much about a win is not just having a student go through the program. A win is a student going through the program, finishing a book, and getting it out there. That is what we see as a.

Stacy: Love. Love. And yes, I have to say it louder for the people in the back that writing is hard, that writing a book is hard, and publishing is hard. That’s why you get help, right? Like, when things are hard, that’s when you need the help. Catherine, I so appreciate this conversation. I would love to just pivot away from me and my work and tell me what’s exciting to you in your life and your work right now. And of course, people can learn more about you through my work at stacyennis.com. But also tell us where they can find out more about you and learn from you.

Catherine: Yeah, so my website is endeavorink.com so that’s ink all one word, endeavorink. And I am really excited by multiple directions that I’m going. I’m kind of always having multiple things going on, but I have really been excited about working with ghost writers and book coaches to be able to provide a solution for their clients. So that’s kind of what I’m leaning into most recently. But then in my own book coaching and ghost writing work, which I’m very stringent about who I take on, but I really have my own passions and dreams of messages that I’m trying to help get out into the world, and those tend to be more having to do with alternative health models and ancient modalities and wisdom, kind of more fringe ideas that kind of shape culture. So I really am excited about kind of pivoting more into that.

That’s what 2024 has to hold for me. But of course, in my work with you and I work with a bunch of different creatives, different phases, is continuing to really refine operational support and what that looks like and different systems that can support the creative process. I think this is like a main thing that I’m really excited about is just constantly finding ways to eliminate boundaries and roadblocks through using left brain type ideas to set up the right brain to be creative and free and come up with brilliant art. Really. That’s the whole point in my book.

Stacy: I love it, Catherine, and we certainly share our interest in health and Lord knows that alternative health writers need some help with writing and publishing books. There are so many books out there that I’ve read that I’m like, dang, this is really good information, but is so poorly written and poorly produced, it’s never going to make an impact. So I’m glad that you put a focus on that area. Thank you so much for joining me today. It’s been a lot of fun.

Catherine: Thank you, Stacy. It’s been great. I really enjoyed the conversation and thank.

Stacy: You to you, listener or viewer, for joining us today. I hope you enjoyed getting a little bit behind the scenes talking, strategy, business, book, all of the things if 2024 is your year, you’re like, I’m tired of talking about this book and not doing anything. My next author cohort starts January 23, so to learn more, you can go to stacyns.com ideatodraft. I also run private coaching and I take on a really small number of private coaching clients every year. If that’s of interest to you. You can reach out to me. hello@stacyennis.com Or you can always go to stacyennis.com and fill out the contact form there. And I’ll get right back to you. I hope this was helpful to you.

I hope that you enjoyed, again, a little peek behind the curtains and getting to hear from somebody that I really respect and admire and appreciate. And I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day. I’ll be back with you before you know it.