Stacy: Welcome. I’m really excited about this week’s topic. I’m going to be talking with an improv expert. And interestingly, improv has been on my list of things that I want to do for several years, but as a mom with young kids, it hasn’t happened yet. So I’m especially excited about this interview because it’s just something I’m really curious about, and I’ve heard from so many people that improv has impacted their communication in such a huge way. And then especially for us as authors, future authors, it impacts how you speak on stage, it impacts how you talk with clients. And after looking reading our guest’s book, or at least part of it, I can see that it impacts your writing too. So I’m really curious to dig into this week’s conversation. So let me introduce you to our guest, EP. EP Megan McCaleb, masterful Improv Trainer and the creator of Improv Team Culture, with a specialty in coaching, executive leadership, and their teams to adopt the simple and effective principle of yes and the core role derived from performance improvisation.

She is an award winning author of her autobiography, not My Plan Sucking It In until I had to push it out. An award winning comedian and a rabid Jeep enthusiast. So welcome, Megan.

Megan: Thank you. I’m super excited to be here with you.

Stacy: There’s so much to cover today, and it was interesting as I was working on questions that I had to really think about what direction do we take our discussion in, because there are so many different trails that we can go down. You’re the first comedian I think I’ve had on the podcast, so I’d love to start with that, and I would love to hear. I read in your book and I’ve seen in places that you’ve been quoted and things you’ve written that a lot of people come to comedy as it’s like they journey through something and they arrive at comedy eventually on the other side often hard things. And I know you’ve been through a lot in your life and journeyed through a lot to get to this amazing life that you have today. Tell me a bit about your journey. What led you into this work that you do today, working with leaders and bringing your improv and comedy to help people better communicators.

Megan: Yeah, that’s definitely a great place to start and very loaded because there’s lots of layers, but kind of touch on that first point of being in the comedian environment, being around other people and kind of hearing what that journey is and recognizing how much it is really a powerful tool to process human issues. And I had stumbled into comedy a little bit by accident, honestly, which is probably for the best, because if I’d really thought about it or tried to specifically seek it out, I think it might have been a little overwhelming or just like all the preconceived notions that we have of what things are supposed to be. Like, I feel like I kind of stumbled into that space and realized how freeing it is and how much it makes me feel like it’s a place where you really get to be your truest self.

And that’s the goal when you’re supposed to just make people laugh. As scary as that sounds, it actually invites a lot of freedom of really trying to express yourself as you are and looking for all of those little details of the things that annoy us or the things that have been really challenging and getting to play with. That is freeing and healing not only for ourselves, but it brings so much relief to the audience. That is like an easy little example of kind of what brought it into the workplace and why I thought I needed to bring it to more people was I worked in corporate, I was a bank manager, while I was also learning improv and stand up on the side. And I could see how much was lacking in that communication space and people feeling like they get to be themselves in the workplace.

And it was such an obvious transition for me to bring the tools as I was learning them, even into my own office with my own team. And it just kind of all took off from there because I needed more people to understand that there’s a better way to communicate and to feel like it’s okay to be human.

Stacy: It’s so interesting thinking about banking and improv comedy. I worked as a bank teller in college because they had like a reimbursement program for tuition. And so, I mean, obviously I wasn’t at your level in the banking industry, but I got to experience that for a couple of years and it feels very buttoned up and there’s so many protocols that you have to follow and regulations and things like that. Whereas to your point, with comedy and improv, there’s a much freer and flowier and I guess more present, maybe experience. One thought. This is just a question that I’ve wanted to ask a comedian at some point in my life. Does it feel like a lot of pressure being funny? You have this orientation in the world of being like this charismatic, funny person, and I’m sure just like me, you have days where you’re just not feeling it.

Do you feel a pressure to show up in a certain way or how do you navigate that?

Megan: I think that’s very common and it’s exhausting. And I think I don’t want to speak for every comedian, but I know one of the things we joke about is that depending on if we want to talk to people sitting on an airplane next to someone, if you really want to have a conversation with someone, then you can say, oh, I’m a comedian. And then you’re likely to have a very lively and deep conversation and then, yes, people want you to be very funny too, like, right out of the gate. And commonly people are like, oh, tell me a joke, which is like the worst thing to just say to a comic, especially if you’re like one one. But a lot of times a vast majority of comedian friends of mine and people that I’ve listened to books or read their books, I say listen because I’m an audiobook junkie too.

But listening to a lot of stories there are so many introverts in the comedy space that a lot of times we really want to just keep to ourselves. So it is a lot of pressure. And it is interesting too, with the science of comedy. Stand up and improv are a little different in the way that in stand up, they’re supposed to be like a certain amount of laughs per minute ratio, theoretically. And it’s hard to switch it off because people think that when you’re performing and you’re on stage and if you’re good, you’re making people laugh when you’re on stage, and then they think you’re just like that all the time, and they don’t really know any other way until people actually ask the question. We get kind of stuck in the middle. And I know I definitely have felt that way a lot of times.

It’s like, am I allowed to be sad? Am I allowed to be in a bad mood and not make a joke about it? Because there’s a lot of things that are not funny. So it’s kind of the long answer, too. Yeah, it does kind of feel like that. But I feel like we also communicate a little bit more freely these days that the curtain is sort of being pulled back on comedy. So people get to see that it’s just a different breed of people. We’re still going through the same types of trials. We just have a weird draw to talk about it, and I’m not exactly sure the psychology behind that yet.

Stacy: It’s interesting, megan, as you were talking about that, I was thinking about this idea of this performativeness, and we all do that in various situations in our lives, right? We have those relationships where we can fully relax and put down all of our guards and walls and just be ourselves. We can vent and it’s okay. We can complain about something and it’s okay. We can share joy, and that’s okay. And then we have these other situations where you do have to kind of put on a certain performance of some kind, whether it’s with a client or it’s with a new acquaintance or a networking opportunity or whatever it is. And you’re describing just a different layer to that than I’ve thought about before, which I find really interesting.

Megan: Yeah, I think that’s the myth. It’s just a different way to be a normal person, I guess. And that’s why I love it in the workplace, is people get to see that it’s not really about being funny. It’s about showing up as we are, and the funny parts of life come naturally. And so that’s kind of why it’s so fun and unexpected to take it into places where they’re not really thinking, oh, this is appropriate for comedy. And I’m like it’s more appropriate than people think because we’re all existing in a very similar way, I think.

Stacy: Yeah. I mean, we all crave fun and joy and laughter, and this idea that we have to be buttoned up and serious all the time, I think, is such a boring way to live. So I love the way that you’re thinking about this. So I would love to talk a little bit about your book specifically, because a lot of listeners and viewers are writing books aspire to write books, and many of them are working on books that are very personal. They’ve overcome something big and they’ve learned from it, and it’s really important to them to reach a hand back and bring somebody else forward with them. There’s this idea of giving back through my things that I’ve gone through and helping others. Your book is sharing a story that you went through that was hard. Can you talk a little bit about that? And specifically so I’d love to hear about the topic of the book, but I love to hear from you on the journey of writing that vulnerability in writing that story and what that experience was like for you.

Megan: Yeah, well, the short version is I wrote a book about hiding an unexpected pregnancy that I had in 1999. I was a senior in high school and very religious at the time, and so afraid of judgment and whatever else might happen, that I hid the pregnancy all the way up until I gave birth. And then ultimately, I chose adoption for that child. And just everything fell into place in a very magical way. And yet there were still kind of some negative things that I had to navigate through once everybody did know that had happened in my family and at church and all those things. And so it was many years later, I was really encouraged to button up that story and not talk about it anymore and to move forward and to repent and never do those things again. And I was really strongly encouraged to not share it and I really felt like I was not repenting and moving on in a healthy way if I brought it up, which was very conflicting.

And so, yeah, then all these years later, I actually waited. It was about 15 years later, I just felt a very strong urgency to sharing the story just based off of a lot of different conversations on the subject matter of unplanned pregnancies, which in the United States, in the country that I live in, it’s a very heated topic with really strong opinions. And I didn’t hear adoption stories very often. I heard most often the argument of the pro choice argument versus the pro life argument and it didn’t include adoption. So that’s essentially what led me into doing it. And I think when you talk about getting into that vulnerable space, I honestly think that being around the comedian world really gave me some bravery. And also I stopped caring as much about what people think because I’d already learned from sharing stories in some regard from the stage that not everyone is going to get my humor, not everyone is going to be willing to look at things from my perspective.

And I had enough little experiences of people where it did resonate and someone did come up to me after a show or after a keynote or something, and they’re really specific about something that they took away that gave them a little bit of strength. So, yeah, I will say I didn’t know what I was getting into as far as how deeply vulnerable it would be until I was in it, but I definitely felt like the desire I was feeling inside myself that I needed to share helped keep me going, even though it felt a little daunting at times.

Stacy: Yeah, certainly of course, sharing something so personal and something you’ve held close for a long time can be very difficult. So I want to say a couple of quick notes before I dig more into this with you. One is that? From my professional opinion, I think it’s really important when you write a book that you’re planning to share with people about something hard that you do it from a healed place and a place where you have processed and you have arrived in a stability and that you’re also mindful that when you go back and revisit these places that it can be really raw and really hard. So sometimes if it’s a trauma, it’s important that you have a therapist that you can talk to or you’re really thoughtful about the things that can pull up for you. So that’s like my professional PSA for anybody listening to this that’s thinking about writing a book, writing can be very healing, but a book that you’re planning to share with other people, you should have done the healing.

I feel really strongly about that. And then another little note. Megan, having listened to your podcast, I think it’s important to state this. You’re sharing your adoption story and I’ve heard your opinion on the paths that women can take that was shared without judgment. I mean, with this acknowledgment that there’s so many paths that women can go down when they find themselves in these places. And you saw this middle place where a story needed to be shared, and you were finding that was resonating with people. You got clues that told you that more women might want to hear that story after you published it. Talk to me a little bit about that experience because it’s one thing to write it and to journey through that and then when you actually share it, that’s a whole different experience.

Megan: Yeah, definitely. So I want to start the answer to that by piggybacking on what you just said too, with that need to be in more of a healed space. And I feel like one of the things that I noticed and what I noticed in public speaking training space too, is that when people are ready to share and when I was ready to share, it was genuinely in service to other people. I didn’t want people to go through what I went through as far as the negative parts of it. I wanted people to know they weren’t alone. And all those things that are really intended on putting love and tools for other people versus sometimes when people want the spotlight for themselves, I think that’s when they’re still in a victimhood and they don’t necessarily realize it. But I can kind of help call people out, like in the speaking space.

So I really noticed that and I totally agree with what you’re saying. And I think why it felt so imperative that I share is because I would think about what if there’s other women right now that they just need to hear that they’re not alone, right, in this modern day. And it was even though it was all these years after my experience. And so having kind of that servant heart in that energy was super vital. And so once I was published and I started to share the story and it was like out there, it was a little overwhelming because it is such a sensitive topic that I definitely saw both sides even more extreme. And then suddenly the floodgates were open that people were sharing deep stories. Like what I got a taste of in the comedy world is when stuff was real surfacey and people would kind of go, oh, I have this little AHA.

And it was way deeper. It was people telling me about all the different choices that had been made, every side of the equation and some even stories from men. And honestly, it became such a satisfying I just felt so connected to my purpose, to having my hard experience become something really helpful in my continued journey. And just seeing how it sparks things in other people, it was really magical. So I’m not 100% sure if that’s where you were going with it other than it was like once it’s there and it’s out there it’s almost like, kind of wait. And it’s like, in some ways, kind of anticlimactic because it’s just another book and like the sea of books and yet the people that it starts touch and sometimes I’d get messages from strangers because they found it on Amazon. And it was pretty powerful to see that when we have that urge to share a story that we should follow it because there are people out there waiting for that message.

And it’s like a gift that keeps on giving.

Stacy: That’s a beautiful answer, Megan. I didn’t know what you would say, so it was exactly perfect. I appreciate that. So I want to talk specifically so we’ve talked about your journey, we’ve talked about publishing. I want to talk about writing, the craft of writing, because I’m reading your book right now. I’m not all the way done, but what I’ve read so far, again, from my professional opinion, your humor comes through and that is super hard. This is like one of the hardest things to do well in writing, is to be funny on the page. And so I’d love to hear a little bit from you on how you translated what you bring person to person, like one to one to many comedy, like all of the things that you do. How did you translate that to the page and what did you learn through that process that helped you become a better humor writer?

Megan: Interesting question. I think there’s probably a couple of things that happened. One of them is on the one hand, I knew that a book was just going to be out there and then anybody could read it. And yet I also was like.

No one will read it. I mean, I really remember thinking maybe I’m just cataloging this and feeling this pull because I’m leaving my little nugget of a legacy for my own family or something. And so I allowed, number one, for there to just be complete freedom. And as I poured it out on the page, which I realized actually, when I listen to my own writing or read back my own writings, I’m like, I write so much differently a lot of times than when I speak. And what was interesting is it’s just like it’s very honest, it’s very real. My goal was not to be funny. It was to be detailed and to bring people into the experience. So I just remember when I was in the writing process, which was fairly short for me, I went from idea to a bunch of random sticky notes and jotted down ideas to published in less than a six month window total.

And when I was in that space, I just remember really sitting into a visualization of each of those little stories that I was telling within the grand story. And I would let myself sit with it and close my eyes and try to remember what the room smelled like, what did I observe, what other people were there, what was I wearing? Any detail I could remember, it brought me back into that feeling so that I could really appreciate the experience and bring people into that story with me. And honestly, I believe humor comes most naturally when people are just very real and in the moment. And the more people try to be funny, the more obvious it is they’re trying to be funny. And I think that’s an interesting thing too, is like I don’t really think I’m all that funny. I just have a pretty good sense of humor.

And I think it’s a lot of it comes from just not trying too hard, just really trying to tell the story in a very well rounded way. And I don’t know, I wish I had a better answer because sometimes people are like, can you help me be funny? Can you help me write a joke for my speech? And I can give some tips and tricks and stuff. And yet it comes out naturally when they’re just in their flow and then I can point out where their funny is. I’m like, that’s where someone’s going to laugh. And here’s how you can maybe punch it up a little bit, but it’s a little bit less of like, I’m going to write and try to be funny, if that makes sense.

Stacy: Yeah, it does. I mean, there was a great tip in there. This is something that I teach my coaching clients, too, which is really putting yourself in that sensory experience. And rather than looking in on yourself, having the experience, like having a memory from the outside, looking in at yourself, actually planting yourself in your mind’s eye in that moment as though you are there and you’re looking out. Of your eyes at that time and taking in what you see and feeling that environment, which that is actually not what people generally do when they try to remember something. They tend to look down, like from an outsider. But you got to be inside that one’s huge. The other thing I noticed in your writing is you vary your sentence lengths widely. This is a really important writing tip and something people can go literally. Finish listening to this whole episode, please.

And then you can go and you can try this out. Shorter sentences, longer sentences, shorter paragraphs, longer paragraphs. That variation adds flow into writing. So I love that. I love that we’ve been able to pull out a couple of things. I want to switch gears a little bit into improv because as I said at the start, I’m super interested in this. And interestingly enough, you brought up the plane story. And I sat next to somebody on a plane one time who ran an improv group in Idaho, and I think it was in Nampas, which is for those of you who aren’t familiar with Idaho geography, it’s a town that’s outside of Boise. And I remember just it was such a fascinating conversation. We dug into what improv is, what they do in their group, and how do you learn, how you get over nervousness and all of that.

So I feel like I have a little bit of baseline for this conversation, but many of our listeners probably don’t. So can you give us that? What is improv if you could define it? And what is your approach to it? Like your personal philosophy on how improv can help improve communication?

Megan: Okay, yeah. Improv in itself is traditionally associated as a comedic, short form performance art where there’s no script, it’s off the cuff. It’s very just thinking on your feet, very in the moment. And for me, it is the type of performance that is most true to our everyday life, performance as the character that we each are. And so recognizing that, yes, it seems like when it’s in this certain framework of it’s going to be on stage and there’s these short little scenes or gimmicks that we’re playing with, it works as a comic or a comedic art form because we’re playing by these rules. And again, we’re not focusing on being funny. We, as a performer, are getting on stage and we’re focusing on building a relationship between characters on stage, being clever with whatever suggestion that we get right in that moment and really listening to what is going on and observing the body language and the emotional cues and all the different things that we’re doing so that we’re ready to continue to build on whatever the last thing was that was said so that we’re not leaving each other hanging.

It makes immediate parallels. So, like I mentioned, I was working in corporate and I couldn’t believe that more people don’t use improv every day once I realized it because we are all improvising every single day, every human being that exists. I would be shocked to hear if there’s ever been one that made it through an entire day where everything went exactly as planned, minute by minute, that there was nothing that an unexpected phone call or all the different things that could happen. And so using those tools in life become very empowering and they also lessen the pressure of how we have to perform every day. We get to just know everything is going to happen as it’s going to happen. And when we use the improv rules, they for me, become a very empowering mindset. They help me to collaborate with my kids in my workspace and in the business space.

Particularly when people see how easy and approachable it is like this energy of not only relief, but also people stand up taller. Like there’s a little bit of a spring in their step when we get a couple of activities in because they’re like, oh, they’re playing. And it’s not hard, but the pressure is off. They can just be who they are. So it’s incredibly magical to me to see that something so simple, it’s achievable and accessible for anyone who desires it.

Stacy: I love that so much. I love that definition because I hadn’t thought about it in that particular way. And bringing it into your parenting, bringing it into your work setting. I know you do this with teams. You help them improve team culture through improv. Can you give an example of maybe an activity that you do and maybe a story or a broader example of how that would directly impact team culture? Like maybe interpersonal relationships or group dynamics.

Megan: There’s so many of them. Let’s see which to choose because there’s really a lot I cover the gamut of foundational things and then I always throw something in that has emotions and body language because we communicate so much nonverbally and then stuff about multitasking. But a great baseline of where I always start people is understanding the core rule of yes and versus its arch nemesis, which is, yeah, but. And that’s essentially where dreams go to die. So I actually will have people do a very simple activity and any listener out there can do this. Grab a partner and you each think in your mind without saying something out loud. You identify something in your mind that is something you love. It could be a person, a place, a dessert, whatever it is. But when you think of that thing, you’re like, I love it so much and I can’t get enough of it.

And then you just time yourself for a very short conversation where one person starts the conversation saying, I love blank. Maybe it’s pizza, maybe it’s my. Kids, maybe it’s my cats, whatever the thing is. And then the first round they respond by saying yeah, but, and then respond to whatever was just said. Then for about 45 seconds to a minute go back and forth and you say yeah, but, and then you respond to whatever that person said. So every single sentence starts with yeah, but, and then you respond however you would respond to whatever the information was given and then you flip it and you go another round and then you do the I love statement to start your conversation. Only the second time they need to say yes and because yes is saying, okay, I hear you. I’m acknowledging what you said and here’s some additional information of what I think about it.

And just that simple example immediately shows people the power of those two words. Yes is a tool for acceptance and acknowledgment. And that’s it. It helps us to release ourselves from feeling like we have to have the same opinions or say yes to everything and have a full calendar of stuff we don’t want to do all these obligatory things. Yes is simply in this space a tool for accepting and acknowledging whatever you just heard. And then the and is your action item that allows you to decide what you need to do with it. If you need to do anything with it, you may just go, oh, that’s great information, thanks for sharing. And then you move on with your day. A lot of times we fill our plates with things we don’t even have to care about. So that is just like the baseline and probably one of the number one things that once people learn what yes and is and how to use it, then they will hear when they’re saying yeah, but.

We catch ourselves saying yeah, but shows in a lot of different ways. It might just be like, oh, well, how are you going to pay for that? Or that must be nice. Or fun fact about comedy sarcasm lives in yabba land. It’s got that kind of more snide negative energy sometimes or not taking people seriously. And that commonly even when I teach these in the workplace, I hear people say, you know what, I yabba a lot on my kids or I yaba a lot on myself or I yaba a lot in the office. They self identify and then they get to make a new choice. And it is the coolest thing.

Stacy: That is so cool. I feel like this is going to be one of those things that sticks with me forever. Now you can’t unlearn it, right? And you’re going to hear it all the time now. I know I’m going to. I was even feeling as you were talking about that the yeah, but is like a compressive feeling like it makes you feel like something’s shrinking and the yes and is very expansive. So do you see that supports I mean, I could see that maybe supporting innovation and like a joyful culture and inclusivity and things like that. Do you see it go that far, that simple concept?

Megan: Definitely. I mean, depending on the types of people sometimes bring me in with a certain intention. They’ll bring me in for their sales team or they’ll bring me in if they’re doing a rebrand or something, like anywhere, they think, oh, we need improv because that’s going to spark creativity, which it totally does. It just goes way deeper than people think because when people hear yes and say they’re in a roundtable brainstorming and they get the freedom to just throw all the ideas on the whiteboard without someone going because, yeah, but it’s like that’s a dumb idea or how would we do that? A lot of times we immediately want to say why something can’t work or why it might fail. And so it absolutely just elevates the ability for people to confidently contribute and on the flip side, for them to recognize that, okay, they just listened to what I said.

Now I need to reciprocate that. And it starts to just be something that it feeds off of each other in the room because then everybody gets to show up and play and even from obviously it’s so helpful in the interpersonal relationships, but people will talk a lot about how empowering it is for their client conversations. Because if you’re yes, Andy, and say you’re a real estate agent, and people are like, this is my massive wish list. I need all of these things for the perfect home. Instead of being like, well, you’re probably not going to find that because blah, blah a yes and energy still helps them find a way to meet in the middle and not shut down your client of like these are their wildest dreams of their home. And I’ve heard lawyers tell me about how helpful it’s been when they’re stepping in with yes and energy in front of a jury.

These are a bunch of strangers that they need to build trust with quickly. And those two tiny words can totally shift the energy in the entire conversation, especially when things are hard.

Stacy: That’s so fascinating and it makes me unfortunately, we have a limited time to talk today, but I feel like we could keep talking about all the layers to that you build on that when you work with people. So we’ve been talking in a roundabout way of the things that you do with teams. Tell us specifically how you work with people. I know you have a lot of different ways that you engage both at the team level, the individual level, the stage level. So talk to us about how people could work with you and where they can learn more about you.

Megan: Yeah, cool. I do lots of in the team dynamic. It’s however the event is set up. Sometimes I go in and it’s 20 or 30 people in a conference room. I mean, you picture a room where there’s room for everyone to move around a little bit, and we start with a circle full of chairs. So it almost looks like you’re coming to group therapy. So, yeah, commonly I go and I actually work with a team where we do an interactive workshop and they get to do all sorts of different exercises that are not as performy as people think they might be. Or I present a lot like people have me come in and do a keynote. And there’s even certain elements with the interaction. Even if it’s a room full of 1000 people, I still get to have them do a couple of those little breakout type of activities just with a partner they might be sitting next to.

And then I do a lot of public speaking coaching. So I run cohorts people that are looking to share their stories. A lot of them, of course, in our space are kind of in that, oh, they’re starting to tell their stories. Some of them do end up wanting to write their books and speak from the stage more. And so I have a whole curriculum of taking people from feeling that urgency of sharing their story to how to take it to a stage and create an entire platform around it with all of the yummy infusion of improv insights.

Stacy: This has been so great, Megan. Where can people learn more about you and get in touch?

Megan: Yeah, probably the easiest place to go is either my website is improvteamculture.com or I am such an Instagram junkie. I love Instagram and I’m very easy to find on. There either @improvteamculture or Kooky. Megan is @kookymegan and I have a lot of fun on Instagram.

Stacy: Well, we’re connected. We have to give a shout out to Whitney Lewis for giving us this connection together. And this has been such a great conversation, Megan, and I really appreciate you being willing to share about your writing process and the vulnerability. Such, as I said at the start, I was like, Gosh, there’s so many directions, and I feel like we covered so much breadth and depth today. So thank you for your time and energy. I’ve really appreciated having you on.

Megan: Thank you for having me. It was a blast.

Stacy: And thank you so much this week to Rita Domingues, who produces this podcast, Catherine Fishman for project management support, and to Kim Foster for helping make sure that everything is error free when it goes out into the world. I could not do this show without you, and I appreciate you so much. And if you’ve been hanging with us all the way to the end, would you do me a massive favor, please, and rate and review this podcast either in Apple or in Spotify. Either of those are amazing places and it hugely supports my ability to reach more listeners with the message of Beyond Better. And that’s it for us this week. I will be back with you before you know it.