In this episode, I’m joined by Tanya Hall, CEO of Greenleaf Book Group and author of Ideas, Influence, and Income: Write a Book, Build Your Brand, and Lead Your Industry. Tanya has helped countless authors—including multiple New York Times bestsellers—navigate the publishing world and build lasting influence through their work.
We dig into what hybrid publishing is, how it’s different from self-publishing, and why positioning and distribution are such key pieces of a book’s success. Tanya also shares how writing her own book shaped her leadership, the emotional challenges authors face during the process, and how to create real momentum around your launch.
If you’re considering hybrid publishing for your book, this conversation will give you a clear, honest look at how to make your book work for you.
Learn more about Tanya:
Book recommendation:
- On the Road, by Jack Kerouac
- Factfulness: Ten Reasons We’re Wrong About the World–and Why Things Are Better Than You Think, by Hans Rosling
Follow me on:
- Instagram @stacyennis
- Facebook @stacyenniscreative
- YouTube @stacyennisauthor
To submit a question, email hello@stacyennis.com or visit stacyennis.com/contact and fill out the form on the page.
Hybrid Publishing 101 with Tanya Hall | Episode 227
These transcripts were generated by robots, not writers.
Tanya: There, there is this talk track in our heads sometimes that is, you’re not ready for that or people might not like it and of course people won’t like it. There will be people who leave a bad review. To me that’s a sign of authenticity on your Amazon page. Frankly, I’ve got a bad review on there. So it’s just, I think you have to kind of reposition how you’re thinking about the very intent behind what writing to begin with, where it’s not about you, it’s. It’s about. You’re giving something to the reader. And when you make that flip and it becomes really an act of, dare I say, love, you know, you’re, you’re really trying to put something out there for someone to do better, better, grow faster, whatever it may be.
Tanya: So to me that brings a different sort of momentum into the work and kind of gives you a reason to push past some of that self doubt and this talk track because it has another purpose. It’s not just feeding your ego. That’s. That’s not going to be a good book.
Stacy: Welcome. Welcome. Today’s topic is all about publishing, which is something that if you have been listening to this podcast for a while, maybe on your mind. I’m really excited to get to have this conversation because I have so many people that reach out to me with questions about publishing. Specifically they have this certain view of publishing that’s not actually reality of how the published industry works. They also don’t often realize how many options are available to them. They don’t realize that some of the gatekeepers that exist in publishing don’t actually have to gatekeep them from reaching their readers.
Stacy: So there’s so much to dig into when it comes to publishing. And that’s why I’m really excited to welcome this week’s guest. As CEO at Greenleaf Book Group, Tanya hall drives growth efforts and fosters a culture built around serving authors. Prior to her current role, Tanya worked directly with Greenleaf’s authors to develop publishing strategies, including multiple New York Times bestsellers, spearheaded growth strategies and built Greenleaf’s distribution organization, working directly with retailers and wholesalers to develop one of the fastest growing distribution businesses in the industry. Tanya is the author of Ideas, Influence and A comprehensive Guide to Writing, publishing and launching your book and monetizing your content. Tanya, welcome.
Tanya: Thank you, Stacy. I’m so happy to be here.
Stacy: As I was getting ready for today’s interview, I remembered that our books were at the airport at the same time together. And I have a picture of my book that I co authored with Ron Price in your book. I don’t remember what airport it was at, but this would have been, I think it was in 2019 that it was in the airport. So anyway, that was a fun memory that came up for me today as I was preparing for our conversation.
Tanya: That is fun. You never get tired of seeing your own book out in the wild, so it’s always fun when people send me pictures of my book. I saw your book somewhere. That’s really interesting and a real kick to see them together.
Stacy: Like many of us in the publishing world, your journey with books, with this industry started decades ago, much like mine. And I would love to hear a little bit about your story. What led you to. To get into the publishing world and then eventually into the role that you’re in today as CEO of Greenleaf Book Group?
Tanya: Yeah, so we joke that I did it backwards because most people go from publishing into television and I went from television into publishing. So my background, yeah, it’s. And it’s all relative, so I’ll tie them together shortly. But yeah, my background is in celebrity entertainment news. I worked for Extra and E Cable networks at the time. They also launched the Style Channel. So lots of fun doing that. But once I had my kids, and this is a long time ago, they’re grown now, but I decided I really didn’t want to work in that industry. It’s not real conducive to spending time with the family, so also didn’t want to raise them in Los Angeles. So at the time, we sort of just took a chance, rolled the dice, and decided were moving to Austin, Texas.
Tanya: And I happened upon what was Very much a startup at this time. This little organization called Greenleaf Book Group, looking for a distribution manager. And really there was not much distribution at the time. The company was just a distributor, not that’s any small thing. Wasn’t doing the publishing aspect of it at that time. And then I just really fell in love with the work. I really enjoyed building, I still do, in terms of building out the distribution part of the company, hiring all of our commission field reps, opening up international distribution, airport distribution when the time came to do ebooks and print on demand, running those programs, and then kind of hopscotched my way around the company and served in every role except for design, because I have no artistic skills, really.
Tanya: So when our founder Left back in 2011, I got the proverbial tap on the shoulder and they said, it’s your return, kids. So I became CEO and love my work.
Stacy: I love that pathway. I actually didn’t know that about your media background, so that’s pretty cool. And I love that you’ve also had all this experience in the different areas. Similarly, I’ve worked in a lot of the various editorial realms and not so much on the, you know, distribution side like you do, but, you know, I was a proofreader, I was a book editor. All these things that you do that I think inform you so much in the future work that you do. I would love. We’re going to go into some of the publishing items, but I would love for you to explain what you mean by distribution to our listeners and viewers, because this is something that authors have no clue to even ask questions about when they are thinking about getting their book out into the world. They don’t really understand.
Stacy: You know, in their mind, it’s like it’s available on Amazon and that’s where people buy it and it shows up at their house. And then they start going down this pathway and they’re like, oh, there’s like, things that need to happen for that to occur. And then we start thinking about global distribution and all of these various aspects. So can you explain what that is and why that is such an important part of what Greenleaf does in the overall publishing process?
Tanya: Yes, and thank you for asking, because it is a critical component of a successful book launch. So fundamentally, distribution is the effort to get the books out into physical bookstores. Yes, there is another path where you can go print on demand, and the book is primarily available online. But in this particular context here about distribution, we’re talking about brick and mortar retail. So the Barnes and Nobles and the Independent bookstores and books, a million multiple other chains. That’s our work there to really try and champion the individual titles that we bring on and make sure that certainly getting them into the author’s local market, any markets where they’re actively creating demand. And every time we have a publicity update from the authors, taking that and using it as ammo to widen the distribution for our titles. So why is that important?
Tanya: That is hard won space, like it is so competitive and that’s something that I just can’t emphasize enough with authors. The number of books published every day is staggering and the shelf space keeps shrinking. So you know, it’s just a really difficult thing to try and win some of that shelf space. I say it’s shrinking because Barnes and Noble now famously is displaying books face out instead of spying out. So there’s just less real estate available for authors in some stores. So distribution is also really complicated. And the way that certain hybrid publishers talk about it can be confusing for authors because they will say we have distribution. And so you say, great, check that box. I’m going to be taken care of. But what’s not clear to the author sometimes is they might just be listing you ingram’s catalog, basically. Tanya:
And yes, it’s available if someone wants to order it, but there’s not a team of reps out there really fighting for it, presenting it to buyers. I joke around the independent reps driving their subarus from bookstore to bookstore, making the pitch. I mean, that effort has to happen to really saturate the marketplace. And that takes a dedicated distribution team with a salesforce. So that’s the critical question that authors can ask. Do you have a salesforce?
Stacy: I like the way that you’re thinking about that. And I, I think that a lot of authors are really surprised at how much energy, effort, time it takes to get into, you know, even a few local bookstores. And a lot of, you know, when we think about accomplishing some of these goals, getting into some of these bookstores, it’s easy to assume that like you need to email the right person or call the right person. But a lot of times it means actually physically going to a place, presenting the thing. You can also really think outside of the box. I think I’ve shared this on the podcast before, a totally different example. But I had a colleague of mine that really wanted to work with this particular client and she sent her a pie.
Stacy: You know, it’s like those are some of the things that you can get creative. You guys have a system to that, which is great because you have a foot in the door for some of these conversations. And I think that’s the other thing that a lot of authors don’t really understand when they’re thinking about their publishing options, especially when it comes to self publishing. They. They don’t really understand that they’re. Even though you are circumventing some of the gates, there are still gatekeepers in certain areas of publishing. I think Barnes and Nobles is a great example. I think airports are a great example. Certain reviews and certain publications are a great example.
Stacy: So when you’re selecting a partner in this process with you, if you choose to go hybrid publishing, they offer that access, if they’re reputable, if they’ve, you know, if they’re a good hybrid. So with that said, perhaps you can give our listeners a little bit of a breakdown of what we’ve talked about, some of those differentiators between what it would mean to go self publishing versus what it would mean to go hybrid publishing. Can you give them just like a breakdown of those differences so they just to really center our conversation so they can understand what Greenleaf does that is different than I want to self publish my book.
Tanya: Sure. So, and our model is really designed to draw the benefits from self publishing and traditional publishing and the best we can eliminate the downfalls of each of those models, hence the term hybrids. So from the self publishing side, what we draw is creative control, higher royalties because the author is still investing in the production of the books, so they maintain their IP rights as well. So all of that stuff carries over from self publishing into traditional publishing. What’s different, however, is especially because we are at our core a distributor, we bring in the distribution muscle that you would normally only get if you worked with a traditional publisher because they have the longevity and the relationships that open up those types of accounts that you mentioned, the Barnes and Nobles, the airports and so forth.
Tanya: We also have a team of people on staff who many come from the traditional houses, but just decades and decades of experience and know how that our authors really value in terms of not having to work in a vacuum and make a lot of these decisions, kind of guessing at what’s going to work in the marketplace, but having a team of people who have been there, done that, and can guide you so you get it right the first time. So self publishing, I’ve seen books that self publish that are of good quality. Often they’re not, however. I know that sounds a little brutal, but it’s just because as I mentioned, authors it’s very difficult to be the writer, the designer, the general contractor, pulling it all together, the marketer. Tanya:
Something’s got to give, and usually something does give, even if the book is beautifully produced. Often self published authors will hit a wall when it comes to distribution simply because the volume of authors is so high that accounts cannot take the one off author. And they’ll say, we’ll talk to you when you have a distributor because they need to consolidate all of that order placing and so forth through one channel just for their administrative ease. So we get a lot of books coming through our doors where people say, well, I self published it. I’ve got three pallets of this book in my garage, can you help me sell it? And we take on some projects like that.
Tanya: It’s rare because usually they don’t meet our quality standards, but we have some amazing titles that started out self published and then came to us to widen the distribution from there.
Stacy: Oh, interesting. I didn’t realize that you do that. And just to layer on to that, I think that not only are authors, you know, they have so much to consider on the distribution side, but then they’re like, oh, I need to make TikTok videos. You know, I need to, you know, they don’t even know what to do, right? They’re like, well, you know, I saw this one thing that said I need to make TikTok. And I saw this other one that said I need Amazon ads. I, I mean, I just had a conversation with somebody today that was at that point where she was just like, there’s tons of information out there, but nobody is just telling me what to do first, second, third. And part of the reason for that is it’s not necessarily a one fit, one size fits all answer, right?
Stacy: Depending on your genre, your goals. But I empathize so much with authors. I also sometimes worry that they’re going to listen to things like this and go, oh boy, I don’t even know if I want to do this. But I think it’s really important to know that you have partners, you have resources, whether you know, hire somebody to help you or you tap into some of the free resources. That’s why I work so hard to put out so much free content also for authors that maybe don’t have the financial access to be able to work with me. I know Greenleaf, on your website you have a ton of free content, free education. So I think that’s really wonderful. We’ve talked about some of the misconceptions already. We talked about distribution. You’ve defined some of the differences between hybrid and self publishing.
Stacy: What other misconceptions do authors often come to you with that you’re needing to dispense spell in the. In their author journey?
Tanya: Well, you just hinted at one. I think it’s an interesting trap that authors fall into where there’s a degree of magical thinking, as I like to say. And you’ve done this very hard work of writing a book, and I’ve written my own. So I know that it’s hard work. And there’s this sense of just like, oh, finally, when you can sit back and push that manuscript across the table to the editor. I did it. I did this really hard thing, and I did it for good.
Stacy: Right?
Tanya: Because so many of the books that I work on, I know, just like you are designed to create a better world or help people live a better life, run a stronger business. So you’re putting this good thing out into the world. And. And we like to think that the universe rewards such actions. And I fell into this trap myself when I wrote my book. I was like, oh, I did it. And this is a good thing. It’s going to help people. Let it do its thing. I’m good now. And I just immediately was like, what am I thinking? Of all people I know better, this is when the real work is just getting started. And if there’s one thing I think authors underestimate time and time again, it’s just how difficult.
Tanya: And I know it sounds like I’m trying to talk someone out of writing a book, but how difficult it is to really stand out in a very competitive landscape and how consistent you have to be with promoting your book and really having some systems around it so that it’s not overwhelming. So I talk a lot about, you know, up to a year before you’re even planning to publish, you should have a very strategic plan in place so that you know how you’re going to manage your launch, you know how you’re going to manage the time after the launch, because there will be a point where you kind of come down the other end of the bell curve of book sales. And. And you’ve got to manage that as well. So the author plays such an active role.
Tanya: And I know sometimes they don’t want to hear that. They want to hear. Well, that’s the publisher’s job. The publisher is the one who should be getting my book out there. The publisher should be promoting it. The publisher. The publisher we have a role in, for sure. But the Most important advocate for your book is you and the person that your reader is going to resonate with and connect with and say, wow, I want to hear more. That’s you, that’s your voice. It’s not mine, it’s not the publisher. So that is the through line. If I look at all of the books that have done really well for us, we have authors who are out there hustling and non stop promoting their work.
Tanya: And I know again, that’s overwhelming or it can feel overwhelming, but if you put a plan to it doesn’t have to be.
Stacy: That’s such good knowledge for people to have. Now, no matter what stage you’re in, even if you’ve already published, just to know that you really need to play a really active role in that process of getting your book out into reader’s hands. There is also this misconception that if you were to land a traditional deal, that your publisher is going to somehow magically get your book on this bestseller list. And everybody I know who has been traditionally published all have the same. Actually, I think it’s worse often in traditional publishing because you have literally a number that you check in with and very little support depending on your kind of status within the house. So that’s another thing that a lot of authors think that like, oh, getting a traditional deal is going to solve everything for me.
Stacy: But you have to do the same stuff actually, no matter which process, whether you’re self publishing, whether you’re hybrid publishing, whether you’re traditional publishing, you need to show up during that launch and for the marketing of the book. And the other thing that I see a lot is that authors will go through the journey and the production of their books. And I end up giving a lot of pep talks actually right around the launch because I’ll talk with my amazing authors who are incredible, like, world needs to hear from them. And I’ll hear things like, well, yeah, I don’t really have a launch party planned or I think I’m just gonna do like a live event on social. No, I’m not gonna, like, I don’t think I’m gonna do a podcast tour. I’m just gonna, you know, just promote it in my newsletter.
Stacy: And I’m like, hold on a second.
Tanya: What?
Stacy: No, you show up big. You need to show up. People are attracted to celebration, they’re attracted to being part of something with you. People want to support you, but you have to also bring the energy that makes them want to participate with you in that launch. And in the marketing.
Tanya: Yeah, that’s an excellent point and I love the way you framed that. It is a celebration. And there’s also a little bit of nuance in our industry about that launch because the industry expects to see the most momentum around the date the book comes out. This is another mistake authors not very often, but sometimes will make. Well, they say, I’m going to stick a toe in the water basically and kind of test some stuff and then go big after that when I figure out what works. And it’s like, no, no, you should have done the testing before launch. So this is not the time to play around and experiment. We need, like you said, go big because that is the type of momentum we want to display to our retail partners. We want to say, yep, here we are, launch week. Wow.
Tanya: We got all these pre orders. We have people coming in asking for the book. There’s all this media happening. That’s how we widen the distribution versus if you just sort of slow roll it, they’re going to look at their systems and say there’s not much going on with this book. So God forbid, I hate it when this happens. But we’ll return the stock that we did in because books, this is something that authors also often don’t quite understand is since books are sold, returnable, there are two sales that have to happen. We sell it into the retail accounts, get it on the shelf, but then it’s really the author’s effort, that audience building, the demand generation that creates the second sale that gets it off the shelf and into someone’s home.
Tanya: And without that second sale, this, the book sales get unwound by returns and we don’t want that.
Stacy: That’s such a great point. I think a lot of people are, this is brand new information for them. So it’s very useful to know this. Now we’ve been talking a lot about some of those launch and marketing things that authors need to be aware about. But can we go back? I’d love to go back to the seed of the idea because another misconception that, or I wouldn’t say misconception so much as I think something that authors don’t think about or don’t put the energy and time that they need to in is around positioning and really that positioning their book for their future goal that they want to accomplish and then really creating a book that will be what I often refer to as a catalyst for this thing that they want to accomplish.
Stacy: What should authors know on the earlier side as they are preparing to write go through editing and go through the publishing and launch process.
Tanya: Well, the positioning is huge, and I think most people don’t give it quite enough thought in terms of differentiating the book from competition. I’m sure you hear this as often as I do, but I very often hear there’s nothing like my book, and my book is for everybody. And that’s immediately a red flag. Your book can’t be for everybody. We have a problem if your book is for everybody, because that means it’s just generic vanilla. So I think positioning and really giving it deep thought and a lot of market research is critical. And it’s. It’s heavy lifting for sure to happen on the front end.
Tanya: But once you’ve done that heavy lifting, so many of your additional future decisions will be that much easier because it’s crystal clear who you’re writing for and what you’re trying to do for them and how you’re different in the marketplace. So it all really kind of becomes a part of your stump speech, as we say. And it helps us as a publisher to pitch your book because, again, there’s so much volume that these pitches. We don’t have the luxury of sitting down over martinis and spending an hour talking about your book with retail buyers. It is seconds, and authors don’t want to hear that, but that’s what it is. It’s lightning fast. And so it’s often Harry Potter meets Brave New World, or like some, we’re trying to connect two things so that the listener isn’t trying to form something new in their brain.
Tanya: So to the extent that authors can help us do that’s really critical and can help with positioning very quickly. So I think that’s. That’s a piece that often kind of gets rushed or. Or maybe doesn’t quite get the attention that it deserves. And again, I think if authors take the time and have the discipline to stop and do that before they do anything else, everything that follows will be a lot clearer.
Stacy: Would you be able to give an example of a book that Greenleaf. I’m sure you could give us like, 30 examples, but maybe one comes to mind of a book that is really well positioned, where the author was able to differentiate themselves. They were able to stand out, maybe in a crowded marketplace that was able to get the attention of, you know, these various outlets, be it Barnes and Noble or Airport Placement or things like that. Tanya: Well, I think, you know, some of our strongest sellers are strong because they have. The author has a tremendous platform, and they have a catchy and memorable Title. So that’s also part of the positioning. Right. So ninja selling. Let’s use that book immediately. You know, it’s about selling. Ninja selling implies that you’re going to come in and suddenly have like. Yeah, right. It’s like you’ve got some superpowers and no one even saw you coming. And, whoa, like, you’re a. Pardon my French, you’re a badass. And. And also ninja applies, like, it seems effortless. Right. So, like, there’s a lot of this positioning nuance that just goes into the title and then is, if done right, kind of woven throughout the book. It really becomes anchor for the book. So that one comes to mind. And there are countless others.
Tanya: I get in trouble sometimes when I call out individual books.
Stacy: Okay, I won’t ask you for any more then. I get it. Yeah, it’s interesting. I love that you use that example and what that calls out to me. Just something that comes up in a lot of the conversations that I have with authors. And maybe not so much the conversations, but my coaching and observation of their journey of writing their books is that so much of finding your voice and really uncovering your unique positioning also requires you to unlearn a lot of the things that you have learned about being like a social creature. So being in a corporate environment, being in professional environments where, you know, usually you don’t want to stand out. And in fact, our reptilian brains protect us from standing out. So now you have to come into this journey. You have to really do something different and really stand out.
Stacy: And that is hard for people to wrap their heads around. And that also requires a willingness. I often tell my authors that you have to play like, you have to learn to play in the book writing process to be able to uncover the thing that. That voice that. That thing that sets you apart. A lot of times, though, that has to evolve. And sometimes authors can get frustrated in the early stages of writing their draft because they feel like it’s just coming out bland, boring. They haven’t really tapped into that. But sometimes some people, it does take understanding a lot of the book at the front end and then discovering some of the nuance of the book during the writing process.
Stacy: And then they get toward the latter, you know, few chapters when it really clicks, and they can come back and integrate that special sauce into the draft. But I think that sometimes authors feel like one. I think they end up abandoning their books because they think there’s something wrong with them or they don’t have what it takes. But. But two I think that they often don’t recognize all of the baggage around creation and social constructs that they carry into this process. Do you find this at all in the publishing journey?
Tanya: Oh, 100%. I’m 100%. And I think you nailed it there. There is this talk track in our heads sometimes that is, you’re not ready for that or people might not like it. And of course people won’t like it. There will be people who leave a bad review. To me that’s a sign of authenticity on your Amazon page. Frankly, I’ve got a bad review on there. So it’s just, I think you have to kind of reposition how you’re thinking about the very intent behind writing to begin with, where it’s not about you, it’s. It’s about, you’re giving something to the reader. And then when you make that flip and it becomes really an act of, dare I say, love, you know, you’re, you’re really trying to put something out there for someone to do better, better, grow faster, whatever it may be.
Tanya: So to me that brings a different sort of momentum into the work and kind of gives you a reason to push past some of that self doubt and this talk track because it has another purpose. It’s not just feeding your ego. That’s. That’s not going to be a good book.
Stacy: Right. Yeah.
Tanya: So that’s really important. And that little voice pops up too, during promotion where I even struggled with this when people would reach out to me on LinkedIn and they would say, I picked up your book in the airport and it just landed in my life at the right time because I’d been thinking about writing a book and it was so helpful and thank you. And I had to train myself to respond with thank you so much for reaching out to say that. Would you mind leaving me a review? And it just felt really almost greedy of me at first. And you really have to turn that off and just recognize that someone just took the time to say your book made a difference. So they’re likely more than happy to leave you a review. But you do have to make the ask. Mm.
Stacy: I, yeah, it’s such a great point. And another layer to that I will sometimes do is I will like take what they sent me and put it in like, review format for them and send it back and say, would you mind copying and pasting it at this link? It would be hugely helpful. So it’s like takes them 10 seconds rather than now. They get it gets added to Their to do list. But making that ask, a lot of people are really happy to do that. I know I am when people ask me for simple things like that. So I love that you brought that up. Speaking of your own process as an author, my very first book came out in 2013, so started writing it in 2012.
Stacy: And while I had been editing books for a while before that and had been through and I’d worked in the magazine industry, I had done so much, I thought I understood a lot, you know, until I wrote my own book and. And I learned so much through that process. Also journeyed through a lot of that self talk. So my mind was layered on with my age because I was pretty young when I wrote that book. And I just a lot of questioning of like, should I be doing this? Are people going to judge me? You know, like all these things which, you know, we have that especially as women when we’re too young or too old, like, is there ever a perfect age as a woman? I’m not sure.
Stacy: But all of these things that I had to go through in my own just mental process, but then also just learning that journey of creating a whole book. What did the writing process, how did the writing process and publishing process and marketing, all of those elements of it, how did that influence your leadership of Greenleaf and how you think about your author’s journey?
Tanya: Yeah, it’s a. It’s a great question and it’s a process I’m so grateful that I went through because it certainly changed how I lead the company. So prior to writing my own book, I would often look at the authors who were stuck in the writing process and frankly be frustrated to say, like, just sit down and write it like people for all the reasons you’ve just described, the self talk or the doubt or sometimes just life gets in the way. I’ve had authors who were surprised with twins. I’ve had authors house burned down or, you know, business started taking off. Great good problem to have. But we get it, like, things happen and sometimes the book moves to the back burner. It.
Tanya: It’s not so much the people whose house burned down that I would be frustrated with, but just somebody who seemingly gave up. So once I started writing my own book, I realized, okay, I understand how that happens because I made some critical errors. I did not start with an outline, which was stupid and arrogant because I talk about this. My book is ideas, influence and income. And I. I have a talk that I give. It has that title. It started as a talk first. So it’s like I already know what the book is. I’ll just write it. And what happened was when I sat down and I say when the muse would visit, I would just randomly start writing in certain sections.
Tanya: And no real plan, just I’ll eventually get to my 60,000 words and a. I wrote things that my reader ultimately wouldn’t care about because I dork out on distribution and supply chain and no one else cares. And I had trouble kind of putting rails around the content and really focusing on what was valuable to my specific reader because I hadn’t done the heavy lifting of ultra refining and defining who that reader is. And two, I ended up putting off all the hard parts to the end because I. I definitely wanted the book to be actionable. That was really important to me. I want people to read it. And I tell you, this thing is valuable. But I also tell you, here’s how to go about getting started and some ways that you can do it. And there were. I’m speaking very candidly.
Tanya: There were areas that professionally I would say, like, yeah, you should go become a professional speaker. And I would verbally get away with saying, go join nsa. It’s a great resource, and that’s it. But in the book, I had to go deeper and really get into, you know, how do you. Beyond that, how do you actually get started? Do you need a speaker’s bureau? Should you have an agent? All this type of thing. And that meant I had to do some additional research and talking to people and interviews. So putting all the difficult stuff off to the end ultimately led in probably about eight months of delays. So I very much. It was meta. I very much became the author that I get frustrated with just putting everything off and delaying pub dates, having to redo schedules internally, that was me a hundred percent.
Tanya: So, you know, at some point, I had to eat crow and go back to our editorial team and say, about that outline, I’m ready. And so we sat down and once we. I had an incredibly detailed outline finally, when we finished that process, and from there it was smooth sailing, because then when I did have a moment to write or I felt inspired to write, I would know exactly which section I was going to. And then I also started disciplining myself to start weaving in the difficult stuff alongside the easier stuff or the more fun stuff to write just in the interest of getting it over the finish line. So I definitely, yeah, I definitely became more sympathetic versus empathetic.
Stacy: I love that you shared that so much. And I really hope that anybody who’s either early stages or stuck in Their process really listened to what you just said. One, that outline can also come through midway when you’re stuck. I have a lot of authors that come to me that abandoned their drafts somewhere around 20,000 words. They just don’t know where to go. And so I do a lot of supporting authors, and, well, first we actually start fresh, and then we reverse outline from what they already have and kind of rebuild the book for them. That’s one. So I’m really glad you brought that up. But then I don’t think I’ve ever talked about leaving holes in the draft on this podcast.
Stacy: And I love that you brought that up, because a lot of times in my coaching, authors will go, well, I just felt more compelled to work on this chapter, and then I was more compelled to work on this chapter. And generally I’m like, okay, that’s fine. But let me just tell you what I know and what I’ve seen, which is that if you only write the things that you want, one, you never get to check anything off as you go, so you never have a feeling of true completion during that process. Two, you leave big, huge holes for yourself, and by the time you’re done writing the stuff you like, your energy levels and willpower are low. So then you feel like you didn’t actually finish your first draft, and you only left yourself all the things you didn’t want to write.
Stacy: So that’s not very motivating to come back and do so. For most people. I tell them to. Your point is such a great story. I so appreciate you sharing as much as you can as you’re writing your draft. Leave yourself as few holes as possible. If you have holes that you need to fill, make them small holes that are more like, find this research study and leave a note to yourself. And then plan a day at the end of writing a chapter to go back and fill as many holes as you can. Try not to, like, make a Swiss cheese book draft. Right. Because then at the end, it’s just like, it’s so overwhelming for people to need to go back and finish that.
Tanya: Yeah. And that’s exactly what I did. So learn from my mistakes. Don’t do that. It got to a point where I have a very uncomfortable rocking chair that I inherited from my grandmother. And to get through those parts I didn’t want to write, I had to sit my butt in that rocking chair and tell myself, you’re not getting up until you write 1500 words.
Stacy: Wow, I love that. What made you think of that idea? How did you come around to that as the strategy.
Tanya: I just knew I hated sitting in that chair. It hurt my back. So I needed something like slap myself in the face to have like, or you’re gonna do this or you’re gonna sit in that chair bad Tanya.
Stacy: And what. Here’s. Here’s a. Another layer to this because I think, you know, what sets apart the people that dream of writing a book from the people who become published authors, is they do get their butts in the seats and get it done in spite of their brain screaming at them to stop. And all the things. What was it for you? I mean, I know you had that built in accountability of your team, so that probably helped a lot, but what did you tap into to get past that stuck point?
Tanya: A couple things. Number one, I’m somebody who’s motivated by accomplishment. And so the. I felt like I was so close, and that was part of the reason of, like, you’re going to sit in that chair until it’s over the finish line, and then you can call it done. And just having that feeling of, I did it, that was really motivating for me. And I just had to remember, like you said, I happened to be 40, 45,000 words in when I got to the part where everything left was difficult. So that was a big part of it. The.
Tanya: The guilt, frankly, of having delayed it multiple times with my team and seeing this is a benefit that I have, I can see firsthand the ripples that creates and how stalling in production makes them redo an entire schedule, move resources around, cancel a designer, move something over there. And I don’t want to do that to my team. So those were two big pieces that finally got me there.
Stacy: I think that’s a important part. And also people can create that for themselves, so they don’t need to be the CEO of a. A publishing, you know, of Greenleaf Publishing Group. But you can create this in your own life. And it can be from hiring a coach to finding a peer accountability, somebody that, you know, you remain accountable to. Building in. Also, there’s great accountability built from share sharing as you’re writing, because then people start asking you about your book. And. And that is another layer that’s like, I really don’t want to tell the next person that asked me that I haven’t picked it up in three months. It does kind of build. Build in that accountability. So I love that you shared that.
Stacy: Another layer to this that I’m curious about in maybe in your experience or in some of the authors that you’ve worked with is this process of writing and publishing a book is a lot more emotionally challenging for people than many people expect when they come into the process. And many of my clients have shed tears during coaching calls. And I completely understand why, because there is, I think, a couple of things. One, writing a book is one of the biggest life goals that many people have. And so when you say yes to that goal and you actually take action toward it comes off this list of maybe someday to I’m actually working towards it, which then puts the stakes higher for you. And once you take action now, you can fail, you can succeed, or you can fail.
Stacy: It comes off this list of like, maybe someday. So I think that’s part of it. But then I think when authors often get into this and they realize they have to share some of their personal stories for this to be resonant with the reader. And then that’s a whole space that people are like, whoa. I wasn’t planning on, you know, necessarily diving into this. But then they realize that to serve the reader in this place, they do need to share more of themselves. Obviously, this is more so in nonfiction than in memoir, which is your story. But this is something that I. I think people really underestimate going into this process.
Stacy: And I’d love to hear from your side, because I’m working with authors typically during that writing process, but you’re taking those books sometimes at that stage, but often, you know, to the market. And where does that show up and what should authors know about that process when it comes to that vulnerability and kind of the emotional experience of publishing? Well, it.
Tanya: To your point, again, it is, It’s. It is the vulnerability. And I think where it comes up is, number one, reviews. I think reviews are really difficult for some authors to take, and they can get a bit obsessed with it, reloading the Amazon page constantly and asking if there’s a way they can respond to a review. So people can really have a tough time with reviews and then just sales in general. So it can be, of course, frustrating when you put so much work into something and it’s frankly a reflection of your own ideas and your own values and you as a person even, right. All of that is in your book. And so then when you put it out in the world and it feels like there’s no uptake, people are interested in it feels insulting, I think, to authors.
Tanya: Sometimes you’re like, wow, I guess what I had to say was not valuable and I’m not valued. So there a lot. There’s A lot of cheerleading that goes on, as you might imagine, in the distribution part of the business, because you have to push back on all of those thoughts and understand that if it’s not selling, it’s probably just a matter of author. You have to get out there more aggressively. You have an audience, but how are we going to find them and really double down on that intention versus kind of, you know, shoving our toes in the sand and saying, what was me? And I guess no one likes my book. So I think there’s sometimes an interesting point about two weeks after launch where certain authors are just like, I give up. I throw in the towel like, it’s two weeks.
Tanya: Your book is just a baby. Come on. And I think they just anticipate that if it didn’t make it big right out the gates, then all is lost. But that’s the other thing is we have some books that were sort of sleepers in the beginning and for years just didn’t do terribly, but just sort of sputtered along. And then something happened. And it’s different in every case, but something happened. And all of a sudden the book got this massive traction and became a strong seller, found its audience. So, you know, I think there’s a good lesson in there, which is you just don’t give up on it. There’s so much that went into the book. There’s always a new angle you can try.
Tanya: It does get more difficult as the book gets older, but I’ve seen it happen enough that I know for sure it can happen if we. If we’re strategic about how we do it.
Stacy: Yeah. And I. I think, again, we’ve been talking about this a lot, but it really is the long haul. You really need to be in it. And back to the book. Positioning, even before that is understanding why you’re writing this book. If everything in you is tied into this physical product that comes out into the world, being successful in sales, you are likely to be let down for the vast majority of people. If sales is the only measure of your success as an author. But if you think about, like, your mission behind it and the doors that book can open and the ways that this book can influence people and enact change and educate people and transform, like, whatever that is, that’s your goal, you can measure it in a smarter way as well. And there’s.
Stacy: I think it’s just so easy to go to that. Like. Like you said to go, oh, well, I didn’t hit my sales goal, so my book’s a failure. Oh, wait a second. Did you get invited to a university to come speak. Did you get a keynote invitation later in the year? Do you have clients coming to you now? Like, there’s all these things that are not connected directly to the number of books sold that I wish that more authors were thinking about when they go into this process.
Tanya: Absolutely. I echo that 100%.
Stacy: Tanya, I’ll ask you our last question that I ask all of our amazing guests, and that is if you could recommend one book to listeners. So this is a book that profoundly changed your life, Impacted your life, I should say. What would it be?
Tanya: Well, my. The book that impacted my life and probably kind of set me on a course, whether I realized it or not at the time to be in this role was on the Road by Jack Kerouac. And part of that is just when I read it, I was 16. And of course at that point, AP English nerd. Like just reading all the James Joyce and stuff like this, where everything was kind of expected, I guess, in the way that it was written and of course, because it’s in high. You’re in high school. But when I read on the Road, I remember being struck by like, you can use language in this way. It’s. He’s, of course, famously stream of consciousness and. And I had just never read anything like it.
Tanya: And it gave me, I think, internally permission to challenge what I thought was the way to do things or to think of things differently. So on the Road was huge in just like giving me permission to challenge the status quo. And then a book more recently that’s made a big impact on me is called Factfulness. It’s a wonderful book. It is about our the way the media presents information to us. Frankly, it can be a little depressing and you feel like the world is kind of going downhill. Factfulness does this beautiful job of showing you exactly the truth behind some things that are not so depressing, but actually really uplifting and how our world is getting better. We just don’t really have the news stories to pay attention to it.
Tanya: So it again, challenges you to think in a different way and maybe question the information that you’re getting and not be so down on the world today.
Stacy: Oh, I love that. I haven’t heard of that book, but that sounds like a very useful book as well and just having a more positive outlook and spirit as we go about the world. Tanya, what are you most excited about right now and where can our listeners and viewers learn more about you and Greenleaf Book Group?
Tanya: I’m super excited about the partner imprints that we’re focused on at Greenleaf Book Group. We have some amazing brands that we’ve brought under our umbrella to help our authors reach communities of readers. So this started with Inc. Magazine. We have an Inc. Original for entrepreneurial content. Fast Company Press is kind of a challenging the status quo for staying on that theme, I guess, in business especially. And then most recently, we launched Kiplinger for our personal finance Kiplinger Books for our personal finance authors. So that’s super exciting. Family business press. So we have these imprints that again let our authors tap into a dedicated community of readers who have already shown interest in this type of content. So it’s really wonderful for them to have that added sort of marketing visibility when they launch their books. Very excited about those.
Tanya: And where can they Learn more? At GreenLeafBookGroup.com we have a very robust learning center on that website where you can learn about everything from editorial to marketing, distribution, branding. It’s all there. And it goes back like 20 years of content.
Stacy: Amazing. Well, we’ll be sure to link to that in the show notes so that our listeners and viewers can find out more about Greenleaf Book Group. And congrats on the new imprint. I did see that news and that’s very exciting to see you continue to grow and add more to the Greenleaf family. So thank you so much for being with me today, Tanya.
Tanya: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
Stacy: And thank you to you, our listener and viewer, for being with us. I hope this was hugely helpful for you. You gained a lot of information wherever you are in your author journey. As always, I want to thank Rita Domingues for producing this podcast. She is the reason that you are listening to this or watching this right now. It would not be out in the world without her and I am grateful. And speaking of reviews, here’s my ask for you. You are listening to this podcast still, which means it must have been useful for you or you’re watching it on YouTube. If you could take a moment to rate, review and subscribe to the show in your podcast or to follow and comment on YouTube, that would be hugely helpful and I would be greatly appreciative. And I will be back with you before you know it.
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