Kim: I think listening is a big deal. It’s such a big step and it’s a bold, courageous step to actually have a conversation with an editor. If you’ve never done this before and you think, oh, my writing is terrible, I can’t do this, what am I even doing? And you’ve got all these voices in your head saying you’re silly to even try. But they pushed through to have that conversation, and I honor that because I know that it takes a lot of courage that you have to pluck up to do. And so when I approach that conversation, I want them to tell me about their. Just tell me what’s your book about? What? Tell me your heart. Tell me what you want to see happen. Tell me, just talk to me about it.

Kim: And in starting that, it’s sometimes a little bit awkward to get started, but as they start talking more about how much it means to them and then I get to listen to that and then I can wrap my head around, okay, I see what your intent is and I can. I’m getting an idea what your through line is going to be for your book. And I, I’m starting to understand and I think once I have the understanding of their process, project what they’re trying to accomplish and they realize that I get it, then something sort of clicks, I think, and then that facilitates and opens the door to a deeper conversation.

Stacy: Welcome. Welcome. Today we get to talk about something that a lot of us aspiring authors are a little bit afraid of, which is the editing process. We’re also going to be talking about writing and I guess how an editor really contributes to your author journey. And I’m so excited to get to welcome this week’s guest. This podcast has been 13 years in the making. I have known this guest for we figured out 13 years and I have gotten to see her journey through this industry, this publishing industry, and her skill, expertise and impact with her work.

Stacy: So let me introduce you to this week’s guest. Kim Foster is a writer and editor who loves helping authors draw out the right words for their message while navigating the nuances of language. Kim’s clients include business owners, thought leaders, professors, and industry professionals, many of whom are first time authors and new to sharing their ideas with the world. She is an expert in various genres of nonfiction, including business, self help, faith based memoir, academic works, and journal articles. Along with being part of our team, she is a freelance writer and editor. Kim, welcome.

Kim: Hi. Thanks for having me.

Stacy: I’m so excited. We’ve been trying to have this conversation now for months and we’ve rescheduled and moved and so I’m so glad we get to talk today. I would want to start with a little bit of your background. When I’m, when I met you, I was just a couple years into building my business. I just was kind of in transition from moving from Vietnam and in Idaho temporarily before moving to Ohio to do my graduate program. And one of the things that I’ve admired about you over the years that I’ve known you is you’re just constantly journey of education and just this desire to really better yourself at your craft. But I know you didn’t start in writing, you started with music. So can you give us a little bit of your background and what led you into the work that you do today?

Kim: Well, I guess like many young people, when you first go to college, you don’t always know exactly what you want to do. I had been in music since a child and I had shown a lot of promise. I was, I guess, somewhat skilled at piano. And I came to college and I’m like, well, I don’t know what else to do. And a lot of influencers in my life sort of channeled me in that direction. Like, of course, you’re so good at this. This is what you’re supposed to pursue. And I’m like, well, I don’t know what else to do. And plus I received scholarships. So that just bolstered that direction. And it wasn’t a bad direction, but it looking in hindsight, it wasn’t the best, but I pursued it. I was a professional musician for quite a few years in piano.

Kim: I actually went straight from college into grad school. So I got a master’s in piano performance and I Think sometimes that sounds a little bit more impressive than it actually is. It feels that way anyway. But because it really. That field really didn’t suit how I’m wired. And even though I did well in that field, it just. I burned out. And I’ve sort of faded out of the music industry and. And in that, living a musician’s life, which, if you’re a musician listening to this, you know exactly what I’m talking about. You don’t just have one job, you have many. And I faded away out of that and worked into different jobs where organization and structure and accuracy were so important. And it was just something that I carried with me. Those skills and the hours of intense practice transferred well into editing.

Kim: But I didn’t get there right away. I remember coming to a point in my life where I woke up in the morning and I was. I was dreading getting out of bed. I was dreading going to work. And I thought, our lives are not supposed to be lived like this. I wanted something better. I wanted something more fulfilling, and I wanted something that I could get up in the morning excited to do that would bring me joy, that I would feel like I’m making a difference in someone’s life, just some. Those different elements. And so I started researching and I. I also pray a lot. So I was praying about direction. I talked to my husband, and he often has a lot of wisdom, and he has great intuition about things. And he said, you know, I think you’d make a great editor.

Kim: I’m like, what? What are you talking about? What’s an editor do besides punctuation and spelling and that sort of thing? I don’t know. But I thought, no, he brought that up. I should research it. And I did, and I found out, oh, my word, I love this. I’m going to do this. So I went back to school, which is sort of a theme in my life, and I took a trimester program from the University of California at San Diego. They have a strong humanities department and they had the program I was looking for. So it was three semesters. In one school year. I graduated. I had a copy editor certificate, so that was that. And, you know, five bucks, I guess, would give me a cup of coffee, you know, at Starbucks. But. But it was really what I needed to get me started.

Kim: And I got my foot in the door with local publishing companies, and then I started making connections and I started building my experience, my business to where it is today. And I just. I found what I wanted to do, and I was so excited, and I Still have that same feeling of getting up in the morning of, yes, I get to do this work. And so I know that I made the right decision.

Stacy: That was so beautiful. Kim, I don’t think I’ve ever heard you kind of tell this story like this. Of course I’ve gotten to witness a lot of this story. So, you know, I haven’t heard you recount it. And I actually didn’t know that component of dissatisfaction that fueled your move into editing. And it’s interesting. I’m actually getting ready to go after this. I’m going to piano lessons. So I was thinking about my piano teacher and you’re right. Is so much like, I think he has so many different roles that he plays in our local music and doing lessons and he seems very joyful and really loves it. But I think you do have to have the right vibe, right, and like temperament to live that lifestyle. What ha. What is it about editing and the work that you do?

Stacy: I know you’re also a writer that has felt so aligned for you that gives you that sense of joyfulness when you wake up in the morning.

Kim: Well, I, I love people, I love relationships. And I think that this job lends itself well to one one. So I’m an introvert. Doesn’t mean that I’m shy or anything, but it just means that I. The way I am wired is I like being alone at times. I like, I. That’s how I recharge. So to work alone on a manuscript is great, but I also love relationships and I love one one interaction. And I think that working one one with an author is so rewarding, especially if you find someone to work with that you click with and then you have this conversation, you have this collaboration and you’re working together on this project to see it through.

Kim: And you know, in working with first time authors, a lot of times they’re so nervous about the process and you get to walk them through that and help them adjust to being critiqued, to adjust to being okay, this is great, but let’s. We need to do a little bit more here and just kind of ease them into what it is to work with an editor and then to go through this difficult and sometimes cheerful process for the author to see them come out the other side. Oh, I did it and look, here’s my book and I’m published and this is a dream come true. It just brings me so much joy. And it may sound very cheesy, you know, to say that, but actually it’s very much a part of why I do what I do.

Kim: I wanted to do something that benefited someone else. You know, I like community. I like collaboration. I like that type of work. And I like seeing someone succeed and have a dream come true and reach that milestone goal in their lives. So it’s very rewarding for me.

Stacy: It is such a rewarding line of work. Just this industry that we’re in. And before we joined for this conversation, were in a team meeting and were kind of counting up the number of books that came out this year and the number of books we know will come out next year. And I felt so, like it was so exciting. It’s just so exciting to be part of that and to know that, you know, we get to meet these authors when the book is. Well, for me, it’s like when it’s an idea and there I may be the first person they’ve ever really spoken to about their book. Like, they’ve never, not always, but. But actually, pretty commonly, I am the very first conversation that they really seriously had about this book.

Stacy: And, and then when they’re coming to you, typically they’re going to be in this place where they’re so vulnerable because they’ve just finished this, you know, crappy first draft, as we call it, like the, the fast draft, the write and get it all down draft. And there’s so much, in some ways it’s almost maybe more insecurity than when I get to meet them because they know and I, I’ve been this here myself. They, they know that what they’re about to offer to you is. Doesn’t look anything like the books of that they’ve read their whole life. And how do you, in those conversations, what do you do to help authors feel more at ease to kind of trust you? Because also trusting you is a requirement for them to be successful in this process.

Stacy: If they don’t trust you, they’re going to reject your suggestions. They’re not going to believe your expertise. What is it about that relationship or how you work with them or the process that kind of enables that sense of trust and maybe disarming or maybe easing into that kind of editing journey.

Kim: I think listening is a big deal. You know, they. It’s. It’s such a big step and it’s a bold, courageous step to actually have a conversation with an editor. If you’ve never done this before and you think, oh, my writing is terrible. I can’t do this. What am I even doing? And you’ve got all These voices in your head saying you’re silly to even try. But they pushed through to have that conversation. And I honor that because I know that it takes a lot of courage that you have to pluck up to do. And so when I approach that conversation, I want them to tell me about their. Just tell me what’s your book about? What? Tell me your heart. Tell me what you want to see happen. Tell me, just talk to me about it.

Kim: And in starting that, it’s sometimes a little bit awkward to get started, but as they start talking more about how much it means to them and then I get to listen to that and then I can wrap my head around, okay, I see what your intent is and I can. I’m getting an idea what your through line is going to be for your book. And I, I’m starting to understand and I think once I have the understanding of their project, what they’re trying to accomplish and they realize that I get it, then something sort of clicks, I think, and then that facilitates and opens the door to a deeper conversation. Maybe we even get into maybe some of the mechanics.

Kim: They feel freer to ask me questions about the process and, and just let me speak a little bit about how I would approach the project. I recently had a client that I worked with who felt like her writing was terrible or it wasn’t strong and she wasn’t good in English when she was in high school and in college and she just felt like, oh, what I had is terrible. And I got to reading it and I was like, well, I see some areas we can condense. She wrote a lot and I helped her weed out some of the extra. But what she wrote was actually beautiful.

Kim: And I think in helping a writer see the strengths of their writing and see and tell them I this, I remind myself sometimes I’m so much in my head when I’m editing, but I try to remind myself to let the author know, oh my word, this made me laugh out loud. What a great sentence. You know, this was a great comparison. Or this or this story. Oh my goodness, this story just sucked me in. Let’s work with this more. And I think it’s encouraging to them. I think it. They have to be eased into, yeah, you can do this. And yeah, you, what you have is good and I’m just going to help you refine it. I’m not the one coming up with the idea. You’re the one that has the amazing idea.

Kim: I would have never thought to write about this and I couldn’t because it’s not my experience you’re the expert to write about this and I’m just going to help you make it prettier or sound more beautiful and tighten it up and make it what you would be proud to put out there. So, yeah, I think that, I think it’s. Listening is the first thing.

Stacy: That’s such a great point because I mean, it even goes into human psychology. You know, you’ve heard the, that they’ve done, you know, research on when people feel like they like somebody more and they like their sentiment toward people and the more somebody talks, the less people like them and the less they talk, the more that person is liked. Which is really interesting. Yeah, that’s true. But I think it’s also as a, for me, as a coach, for you, as an editor, one of the many things that we are doing is really holding space for them to process and to be seen and to be challenged and validated and like all of the things. One of the things that I heard you say, and this is something I use in my coaching is give specificity in what’s working well.

Stacy: Because part of what we’re also doing and I see for coaching, definitely and editing, definitely part of our role is to help them improve their writing. And I think that a great editor. Now some people come in and they don’t really care. They’re like, whatever, just make it nice. And they don’t really maybe have the time, energy or interest to invest in that skill development. But for those that do want to grow as writers, you learn so much from the editing process. And if you have an editor, this is what I tell my book coaching clients. When you find an editor with the heart of a teacher. Because that person is not going to come in and just correct things. They are going to explain things and support you in understanding the decision making.

Stacy: And I grow the most as a writer when I am edited by a teacher oriented editor. And I think that mindset is so foundational and maybe also some of that vibe comes from the fact that you’re married to an amazing teacher. So maybe there’s that, you know, element that comes in I would love to hear because I know when people think of editing they often have this really backwards idea of what editing is. You know, they think of the like red pen wielding like as you’re marking things on the page. But that’s not what you do at all. You really specialize in developmental and substantive editing. You mentioned copy editing earlier.

Stacy: And we also know there’s Proofreading in the editorial landscape, would you just give us like a quick and dirty of what those four things are and then give us a little bit more layering in your own approach to developmental and substantive editing?

Kim: Sure. So developmental editing I’ll start with. That is oftentimes before an author even begins writing their book, it can start with an idea and then fleshing out that idea into a very developed outline. Sometimes if a, if someone is so resistant to an. A very developed outline is. We’ll at least get something down just so we can have a little bit of structure to work on. And then we’ll work in the other elements as we can. But yeah, so you’re developing, you’re structuring out your book even shorter forms, like an article. You need to know what you want to say and you need to know how you want to get there. And who are you talking to, who’s your reader? That’s a big deal in all elements of editing. But it really comes in the developmental editing part.

Kim: Sometimes someone will come with a first draft already and. But you’re just working at structure. What, where are the gaps? Where are the big holes? What can we add in here? Can we add in research? Can we add in narrative? So you’re just getting that form together. Substantive editing or content editing is when you come in and you’re looking for even more gaps, you’re looking for transitions, you’re making it flow better, you’re sort of shoring up the manuscript to its solid state and you’re getting it as clean as you can before you send it off to the copy editor. Now copy editor is going to look at it more, honing in more on the mechanics. And that’s where the spelling, proof, punctuation, parallelism, all these different things. And they’re going to look to make sure that there are still no more gaps.

Kim: Sometimes you might find an awkward sentence and it doesn’t transition well into the next section. And then you’re like, you gotta smooth all that out. Anything that’s a hiccup and a copy editor is going to be looking for. When it goes to the proofreader, that is when you’re getting it ready for publication. There can be no mistakes. And you say that, and sometimes there are. So what you do is you have proofreading before it goes to publication, and you have post publication or post design proofreading. Because when it gets into the design, there’s going to be some quirks sometimes from the program, and there’s Maybe like, oh, I missed that comma, or oh, there’s no period at the end of that sentence, or widowed orphan blinds, those sort of things. You’re looking for all of that.

Kim: So that’s just kind of a quick rundown of those four. What I love about the developmental part, it’s so fun because you’re brainstorming with the client. You’re getting to bounce things off of each other and you’re like, what about this? Have you thought about this? And you get to be very creative. And I like that because in the further part of the editing is not as creative as this phase. And this is where you get to sometimes, depending on what you’ve decided with the writer, you may do some of the research for them and you may say, hey, this is a great case study. You should put this in here. And you may help them compose it, or you may just give them, hey, here’s the link. Go, go do it.

Kim: You’ve worked that out with the writer ahead of time, what your involvement is. But that’s, I love that because you get to research and you get to find things that are like, oh, and I, I learned so much myself during that stage. So that’s one of the joys of editing is that, you know, when you play these trivia games with your family and all of a sudden you’re like, oh, yeah, I know what that. And you’re like, what do you, how do you know this? I’m like, oh, I edited a book about this. You know, they’re like, oh, whatever. So, but anyway, so that’s kind of, that stage is just hashing out and fleshing out what you want to say and getting it down. The content or substantive editing phase is when you’re really evaluating. Have we filled in all of the gaps?

Kim: Have we put in enough here? Does this need a transition? Wow. The ending to this chapter is not working. We’ve got to make it have some punch. Is the first thing that the reader sees how much punch is in that page? How much are you going to draw in that reader? Is your back cover copy strong? Are you going to suck in the reader with that? And I like to, when I’m editing, I will highlight and copy out strong statements and I’ll put it in a back cover copy document. And I, and then I’ll use that a lot of times to come up with the back cover because I found some really punchy statements that work. And, and I, that’s Kind of a fun thing. And it’s kind of thinking ahead too for the later parts.

Kim: But yeah, that’s just, you’re just trying to get the flow and making sure there’s, the through line is good and there’s no gaps and it just has the punch that it’s supposed to have. I love that.

Stacy: I, I didn’t know you write that cover copy. That’s cool. That’s exciting. And I agree with you. The, the stages it does. There is a, a more creative kind of approach as you. And you’re in those like wider stages of ideation and building. But there’s also like a lot of people really love the specificity and clean approach of proofreading. And as an editor you really have to find your space. And it’s so funny. I don’t know if it’s because were, we had this interview today that made me think of this, but today I was getting ready and I was thinking about when I used to work with Sam’s Club magazine and I started, eventually was executive editor, but started as a proofreader.

Stacy: And I was thinking about how when I proofread that magazine, I would actually go in because we use this software that synced with the design. So as a proofreader you would go in and directly edit the actual magazine design that was going out to 11 million people printed. And it was not for me. I mean, I did a very good job in that role. But I would like lay awake at night sometimes and I would go, oh no, did I make that? Oh, wait. Oh no. I think I accidentally typed an extra letter and I would like get up and check because it was just so nerve wracking. It just was not for me. Oh, okay. So I’d love to hear from you on your experience as an editor. Obviously you’ve been doing this for a very long time now.

Stacy: What are some of the common things that you see when authors start working with you that are kind of universal challenges with manuscripts? What’s, what are common themes that you see that you’re having to. I don’t love the word fix, but you’re editing, you’re revising with them.

Kim: Well, I, I could think of a couple that really come to mind. One is the structure. If they haven’t worked with an editor before and they’ve just put something together on their own, which oftentimes works well, especially a memoir because it’s chronological. So it sort of has that natural structure to it. You know, you just, you’re going chronological. So we’re just following, you know, that’s your structure. I think without feedback at the beginning of your book, sometimes it can lend itself to a hodgepodge manuscript. And if I as an editor come in and I read through it and I evaluate it and I’m like, oh my, this is not a very good structure. This doesn’t flow and there’s things that still disjointed and I’m going to have to deconstruct it to reassemble it. And that’s going to cost the author more money.

Kim: And that is, you know, that’s a very discouraging thing to come across. So it’s good to have someone evaluate it. Someone. And it doesn’t have to be a professional editor, though I of course would lean towards suggesting that because it’s my world. But if you know someone who’s a good writer who can evaluate appropriately, have them look at it. At least have somebody helping you along the way to evaluate. You need that. You need that feedback. That’s one thing. Another thing is when you quote somebody, you better make sure that you attribute that. I.

Stacy: Yes. This happens so much, doesn’t it?

Kim: It really does. And you know, as editors, we’re trained to realize when all of a sudden your voice changes as an author and it’s like, well, that does not sound like them. And you copy it and paste it in Google and you’re going to find the source. Most often that’s. I mean, I remember I had a wonderful book. I got it. The guy had, he was just giving it to me. This was years and years ago and I was reading through it and I was like, this is looking like it’s not him at all. What do I do? This is. And I started finding tons of things throughout his manuscript. And he had skillfully woven together other people’s writings. And it wasn’t a deceptive thing. He did not have that motivation. He wasn’t a deceptive person at all.

Kim: He was misguided in some advice that he had received from another writer that said, if, hey, if it’s published on the Internet, then it’s free. And that’s not the case. Let me just tell you, if you’re listening right now, it’s not the case. So we had to go through. And it did cost him quite a bit extra because he still wanted me to help him. And I had to say, I am sorry, but you have taken in too much content. You have not attributed the originator of this content and you’re going to have to rewrite and call, take out things. And he did, and he did a great job of it. He dug in and did the work and he felt terrible about it and I felt terrible for him. But he was willing and he was a man of integrity and he.

Kim: He made it right and he published a really nice book. But that is. That will save you as an author. It will save you so much heartache and time and money. If you make sure that you just throw down the URL, put down the book that you got it from, write down. If you did a book, put the page number down. Just. Just be specific about doing that. Just stick it over to the side, write a note and then continue. But that’s just an important aspect because it’s not just an ethical issue, it’s a legal issue. And it can really come back to bite you financially if someone ever decided to come after you for using a bunch of their content and not saying that was them that originated.

Stacy: So, yeah. And it’s their other layer today as we have AI and I’ve recently been aware of some situations where AI is scraping and pulling other people’s content. Somebody’s using it, and then it is copyright infringement, but the person is saying, well, but I got it from AI. In our contracts, we have a specific clause saying you cannot use generative AI if you’re working with me as a coach, it’s not a thing that I allow.

Kim: Yeah.

Stacy: And it just, to me is such a huge and timely issue. I love that you brought that up. We’ll be sure as well. We had an episode with a attorney, Brad Frazier, who, you know, I believe. And we’ll link to that in the show. Notes all around copyright. That was a really important and useful episode. Kim, I could continue to talk to you all day, but I have to go to piano lessons. I have to get my daughter and go to piano lessons with her. Her. So I. I want to close this up, but I would love for you to tell our listeners what you’re most excited about right now and where they can learn more about you and get in touch with you if they’re interested in working with you.

Kim: I am excited still about the work that I do. So that’s just sort of a continuous excitement. But something special I think that’s going on in my life right now is that I’m writing more. And I’m at a point in my business where I am wanting to bring in the writing aspect and balance it more with the Editing. So it’s been majority editing, some writing, but now I want it to be more writing, maybe a little bit less editing or integrated. So I, I love that excitement and a little bit of a shift in my business trajectory of exactly what I want to be doing and also writing maybe for specific publications and that sort of thing. So getting a little bit more published with the writing that I’ve done and just pursuing that just because I love doing it.
Kim: And I think, yeah, that’s just something that’s very rewarding to me and I’m always looking for aspects of my business where I can develop and then flourish in. So that’s where I’m headed for that. And you can contact me. I have a website that’s getting reworked right now, so hopefully by the time this is published or soon thereafter, it will be available. It’s in Kim FosterEditor.com and I’m also on LinkedIn under Kim Foster. So, yeah, you get a. If you want to have a conversation, I’m always up for that. I’ll brew a pot of coffee and we’ll sit down and talk about your project.

Stacy: A whole pot?

Kim: Well, I won’t drink a whole thing.

Stacy: But we’ll be sure to those in the show notes so that people can get in touch with you if they’re interested in working with you. And Kim, it’s just so cool to see all of your impact on the work you’re doing. I know you’ve also contributed a couple of posts for us on my website, so we’ll be sure to link to at least one of those in the show notes so we can also show your work. And I also just feel like the luckiest person ever to get to work with you on a lot of the projects that we do with our team. And I feel like we have some interesting partnership growth coming in 2025. Like, I feel like there’s some cool projects ahead of us. So we’ll see. We’ll see what that all turns into in the year to come.

Stacy: But thank you for joining with me today.

Kim: Oh, Stacy, thank you so much. You’re such a joy to talk with and to work with. So thank you for having me on your amazing program.

Stacy: Aw, thank you, Kim. And thank you to you, the listener, for joining us. I hope this was really helpful and informative for you, no matter what stage you are in writing your book. So much good information and I hope it got you thinking about some of the things that you’ll need to know on the editing journey, whether it’s your first book or your sixth. And I want to thank, as always, Rita Domingues for her production of this fine podcast. She is literally the reason this podcast comes out every week. I could not show without her and I am so grateful. If you have 30 seconds right now to rate and review this podcast, it makes a massive difference in me being able to reach more listeners with the message of living a life that is beyond better and bring on amazing guests like Kim. And I will be back with you before you know it.