What if you didn’t have to wait until the end of your life to rest, explore, and pursue the things that matter most to you? That’s the question at the heart of this week’s conversation—and honestly, it’s one that has stayed with me long after we finished recording.
My guest, Jillian Johnsrud, never expected to retire early. So instead, she made a plan to retire often. By 40, she had taken over a dozen mini retirements.
In our conversation, we dig into what mini retirements actually look like in practice, how to overcome the very real challenges of planning, negotiating time off, and financing these breaks, and why intentional pauses can lead to more creativity, career clarity, and even higher earnings. We also talk about using mini-retirements as a low-risk way to test a new country before making a big move abroad—something close to my own heart.
If you’ve ever felt like life is passing a little too fast, or that you’re waiting for someday to finally live the way you want, this episode is for you.
Get to know Jillian:
- Website
- Instagram @jilianjohnsrud
- YouTube @JilliansJohnsrud
Book recommendation:
- The Icarus Deception, by Seth Godin
Follow me on:
- Instagram @stacyennis
- Facebook @stacyenniscreative
- YouTube @stacyennisauthor
To submit a question, email hello@stacyennis.com or visit stacyennis.com/contact and fill out the form on the page.
How mini retirements can transform your career, creativity, and life | Episode 252 Transcript
These transcripts were generated by robots, not writers.
Stacy: Welcome. Welcome. This week we are going to talk about something that our European friends already know very well and that is mini retirement. Although of course they don’t really call it that here. I’m really excited about this topic because this is something I’ve actually been doing for a long time, but I didn’t realize I was doing. And our guest also has given me a different frame through which to think about my own quote unquote, mini retirements. And I hope by the end of this episode you will maybe be thinking about how to integrate it or if you’re already taking off big blocks of time, maybe being even more intentional with it. So let me introduce you to this week’s guest.
Stacy: Jillian Johnsrud has taught, coached and wrote about mini retirements for almost a decade. She hosts the Retire Often podcast and is a popular speaker and consultant for many retirements. Her book Retire Often shares how to take multiple career breaks to unlock adventure, advance your career and find financial freedom. Jillian, welcome.
Jillian: Thanks so much for having me.
Stacy: I’m really excited about this topic. When I came across you in your work, I thought this is just so perfect for our listeners. Our listeners aspire to have lives that are not just like better than their parents or a little bit better, but actually beyond better. So tell us first of all, what is a mini retirement? How do you define that? And maybe you can share a little bit about your own journey and how you’ve built this into your life.
Jillian: Yeah, so I define mini retirement, which is just a term that I find to be the most neutral. Some people would call it like a sabbatical or a hiatus or a career break or a gap year. Like there’s lots of terms. So pick whichever one resonates. But I define it with three characteristics. One, it’s a month or longer. I think a month is kind of that minimum effective dose to really start to get the benefits. It’s what distinguishes it from just like a longer ish vacation. The second one, you’re stepping away from your 9 to 5 or your primary form of work. So it doesn’t mean that you’re doing nothing or even just traveling. You could be doing other interesting projects, but it’s not your typical kind of daily grind.
Jillian: And the third one is to focus on something that’s meaningful, something that’s important to you. And when you combine those three, yeah, good stuff can happen. I’m 40. Oh, I just turned 43. I’m 43 now.
Stacy: Happy birthday.
Jillian: Thank you. It’s still my birthday month. Got a couple more days. Yeah, I’ve done a dozen of them over the years. And I think what’s kind of interesting and surprising to me is I think they started off how most people imagine. Like, I did more traveling, I did more like personal growth things. But after you recover from burnout and you start to integrate this more. I’ve used in the minute retirements not just to take long trips with my kiddos. I have five kiddos at home. But buy rental properties, write books, do other, you know, other projects, do therapy and personal growth and all sorts of things. So they can be kind of a like a Swiss army knife. Like, it’s one thing that can have a lot of different functions.
Stacy: It’s such a interesting kind of life approach that you’ve had. And I know this has been for a long time that you’ve lived this way. But you know, as Americans, how are we valuable if we’re not being productive? You know, if we’re not working long hours and really tired all the time? Like, that’s our, often our definition of self worth is our productivity. And we very much live in a depletion culture that is, that’s valued and heralded in American culture. And I imagine that there are people listening to this, especially North American kind of audience. Maybe our British listeners, Australians. I don’t know Australians. You tell me if this fits for you. But they’re like, sounds great, but I don’t have any clue how I would integrate that into my life.
Stacy: I’m sure there’s some assumptions about mini retirements that are inaccurate that maybe we could bust right now. So could you share a little bit of those kind of like misconceptions about mini retirements?
Jillian: Yeah. When I wrote the book, I divided it into kind of four steps. And those first three, I would say everyone has a challenge with one of those first three. So it’s like how to plan the time. Like you mentioned, what would I even do with this? Like, who am I outside of my job? And that can be a big question mark for people. The second one is career. Like, yeah, that’s great. There’s no way I can get a month Off. Like, that’s not realistic, that’s not possible. And so I spend a lot of time of like, how would you negotiate that? Off. How would you have that conversation? How can you plan this in between jobs? And then the third one is financial. Like, yeah, that’s lovely, maybe I can get a month off. But like, how do you afford something like that?
Jillian: I think there’s a misconception that it has to be incredibly expensive. And the reality is like, if you set aside, I make the case in the book, if you set aside like 7% of your income, you could take a month off every other year. They don’t have to be tremendously expensive to be really meaningful. Like, I took a month off a year ago to learn tango. So like, and I gave myself a thousand dollar budget, 30 days to get as good at tango as I could in a month. And it was so amazing. And for me it felt like a capital investment into my future. Like this was a hobby, a social activity, a physical activity that I could enjoy for the next 40 years.
Jillian: And to spend a thousand dollars in a month giving myself a head start in that felt like a great investment.
Stacy: I like how you’re intentional, you are with these sabbaticals, mini retirements, whatever you want to call it. And it’s interesting because when I lived in the US so we moved out, we lived in a couple countries before we had kids. But I’m going to put those aside because I was in my 20s, they don’t really count. When we moved with our kids to Thailand, this was about eight years ago, I think seven and a half, eight years ago. Before then I’d never really taken time off. I mean, I took the week here and there, but I mean I was a solopreneur. But moving we, like I had to take a significant amount of time not just to prepare for the move, but to move. And then when we got there, like it was kind of a disaster.
Stacy: So, you know, I, and I was working on a long project, so I had, and I had built in time in case I needed a little bit more space. But I think I ended up taking like six weeks or something to kind of make the move and get there and get settled and all that stuff. And that was really interesting because that was also like my revenue got higher that year. Like, it wasn’t like I lost money. And I’ve often found that the, when I go, I take normally August off, although I do have some. I’ve noticed in as a business owner and I’d be curious to know your thoughts on this. It’s actually for me more stressful to take an entire month with no touch on my business.
Stacy: So I’ve started integrating a one day touch in during that month and that just helps me feel much more at peace. And when I get back, people are happier. It’s just, it’s worked better for me that way. And then I usually take three weeks in the winter and I take like the odd week here and there.
Jillian: Yeah.
Stacy: And I never thought I would get to do that, you know, like living in the US And I was always so exhausted, we never took vacations. And what’s I think is so interesting is that is so baked into what we think is normal culturally that it’s like, not like I never lifted my head up and thought could I do this differently? Until then I was kind of had to. And then I moved into these cultures. Especially now I’m in Europe where you know, restaurants shut down for three months in the winter. And you know, I had, we had like a plumbing situation recently and I like whatsapped the main number and didn’t get a reply.
Stacy: And then I called the plumber directly and he’s like, oh well, nobody’s watching that because she’s out for a month, you know, and it’s like, it’s just kind of this mentality that’s like, what’s the big deal? Like I, people need breaks and it’s, I’m. But I imagine that for the people that you’ve supported that read your book, that follow you online, there’s like almost a mental journey that they need to go through to get there. What are some of the first steps if somebody is listening and they’re like, I want that in my life. What are some first things that they could do to start to work towards something like that?
Jillian: Yeah, I always encourage people to start small. Like start with a month off, which when, if you’ve never taken a month off, it sounds incredibly daunting the first time. But as you’ve probably experienced, the more you do it, the easier it gets. Like you kind of like figure out the routine and you figure out the rhythm and it’s not a huge monumental thing.
Stacy: Yeah.
Jillian: You know, I, I describe that transition.
Stacy: Now that I’m, you know, I started. Jillian:
Doing this in my early 20s. It’s almost like the seasons, like it’s not a huge deal when summer starts, it’s not a huge deal when summer ends. Like you transition between these Seasons of work and rest and creativity and exploration and growth and productivity. And it doesn’t feel very dramatic. It feels like the normal rhythm of life. But that first one can be, oh, so many fears. So many, you know, so many. I call them, like, yeah, buts. Like, yeah, that sounds cool, but. And we all have those, yeah, buts. So the reason in the book I started the step one with, like, craft this idea is that you want to have that vision for what is the benefit going to be? What is the outcome? What is it that I’m looking forward to?
Jillian: And the more you can kind of like visualize that and internalize that, it will help get you through the next two steps. Whichever one of those feels stressful, whether it’s having hard conversations with your employer or deciding to take a break in between jobs. So, you know, maybe that’s something you negotiate with your next job or you quit and you don’t have another job lined up, which can be super scary for people. Or it’s the financial pit, the financial piece, you know, whichever is the one that you’re like, yeah, but so starting with those, what would be a compelling way to spend a month, and especially for the North American counterparts, I think, like, 89% of Americans have experienced burnout in the last year. If you haven’t taken a break in years, maybe ever, like, that’s probably a pretty good starting place.
Jillian: Like, that’s a good function of this first menu. Retirement is just taking care of yourself, getting your head above water, maybe doing one cool, interesting thing that would be compelling for you. But I called the book retire often versus, like, take one massive, epic mini retirement in your life. Because the more you do it, the better you get at it. The cost of mini retirements, and it sounds a little silly, but the costs of them really are two things. It is logistically challenging and it is emotionally fraught. But the more you take them, the lower that cost of admission is. They’re not as logistically challenging and they’re not as emotionally fraught as that first one. So knowing, man, this first one’s going to be the hardest.
Jillian: So start with something small because that’s going to give you the confidence and the clarity and the know how to, like, do the next ones.
Stacy: I like that approach. And it also, you know, it’s like, you don’t need to. Well, a couple things that kind of resonate for me also in how I work with authors. A lot of times when people go into the author journey, it’s like, this is my one book. And everything rides on this one book. And one of the first things that I often say to authors is hold an openness to there being more than one book. Because if you can really focus on making this the right book for right now, then that just removes so much pressure and it can make it so much more joyful. It kind of sounds like a similar approach for you.
Stacy: It’s like rather than going, this is your one mini retirement and there’s so much pressure, don’t expect so much out of it other than have some fun, get some rest, you know, take care of yourself. That’s pretty doable I think for most people to go in with that expectation. And I also, just to play listener, viewer, advocate, I can hear the thoughts almost well, my job will never let me take off a month or I’m the only person in my business or I only have an assistant and I have clients that expect me to be available. What do you say to these very real concerns that people have about taking such long breaks?
Jillian: Yeah, it’s really scary to do a thing that you’ve never done and a thing that perhaps you haven’t seen done. So with, you know, in the book I, because I’ve done so much one one coaching, I’ve done group coaching. And it’s one thing to say, yeah, go talk to your boss, ask for a month off. But when you’re sitting in front of another human, they’re like exactly how? Or like exactly what do I say? Like what, what are the words that are going to come out of my mouth? And so in the book I put in a lot of scripts. Like here’s how you send that first email. Here’s the three sentences you put in that first email. Here’s how we’re gonna structure the story of your time off. You know, I have kind of like the four themes of your story.
Jillian: It has to be positive. It can’t be. I’m so tired of looking at yalls ugly faces. I need a break from you. So it has to be something positive. It has to be something interesting. Do something cool and compelling. It’s helpful if it’s specific. So instead of like, I just want more quality time with my kids, you know, I did a 10 week road trip with my kiddos when they were all itsy bitsy in a pop up camper. We went to 10 national parks. It’s a very specific way to have quality time with your kids and make it frame it as a one time event. You know, a 10 week trip to 10 national parks, not something you’re going to do every single year. Like that’s kind of a one time thing.
Jillian: If you’re going to hike the Camino, that might be a one time thing. And so you craft these elements of the story and then you think through what are all of the challenges? What are all of those thoughts? I call it radical empathy. What are all the concerns your boss is going to have? You articulate those in your head, you bring solutions and then the thing that’s counterintuitive, but you give them their story. So that might sound like, you know, my mom and my dad had always planned to bike through Croatia when they retired at 60. You might know my dad passed away a couple years ago, but my mom is turning 60 this year. She’s set to retire.
Jillian: I would love to be able to take this month and do this bike trip with her while she’s still young, while we have this time together. You know, I have a week of pto. I would need three weeks off unpaid. And then you articulate the challenges, those inner thoughts that your boss is having. I know that we might have some challenges. This project’s coming up and who would handle this? And then you bring those solutions. And when you frame it in this really creative, collaborative way, people have so much more success than they imagine up front. Front, those usually go much better. Even if your company doesn’t have a policy, even if no one’s ever done it. I’ve even had clients that are like this, you can’t do this.
Jillian: In my industry, like I work in government work or I work in an insurance company, or like I’m a lawyer, like I’m a doctor, like this isn’t something that we do. But when you put in the work up front, you usually get pretty good outcomes.
Stacy: It reminds me just in life in general that I often tell my kids, if you don’t ask, you’re not going to get it. And if you do ask and you get a no, you’re also not going to get it. So like, what harm really is there? I’m sure that there’s, you know, there are things that you need to consider with your job and your boss. But you know, to your point, that’s a very respectful, certainly if somebody on my team came to me and obviously I have a very small team, so it’s a little different than a big corporation or hospital, but and said that, like, what are you gonna say? No? Like really?
Stacy: And there might not be, you know such a time bound, specific thing, but I imagine that you can create an honest story about any purposeful reason to take that time off.
Jillian: Yep.
Stacy: Yeah.
Jillian: In the book, I call it Memoir Rules. The rules of a memoir, it all has to be true. And it can’t be the whole truth. The whole truth is too big. Whole truth is too complicated. If you give all the details, you lose the plot. So it all has to be true, but it doesn’t have to be the whole truth. Just find the little corner of the story that works for this purpose and tell that story really well.
Stacy: Yeah, I like that advice a lot. I would love for you to maybe share since you know, you’ve worked with so many people that have experienced this. One or two stories of people that have gone from that burnout, near burnout on that hamster wheel of depletion to integrating this into their lives in a meaningful and consistent way. And how, how they did that and how that changed their life.
Jillian: Yeah, it is a really multifunctional tool. So people have lots of different outcomes and they have lots of different challenges, which is part of the reason I do my podcast, is that I just highlight people’s stories. How have other people done this? What are the benefits to them? What are the challenges to them? I had one client when I started working with her, she had a couple babies, so she’d had a few maternity leaves. And she was like, there’s no way I can get time off, so I’m going to have to quit to take a mini retirement. But I desperately need a break. You know, she had a whole bunch of littles. And, and I was like, okay, yeah, that works.
Jillian: And so in the process of her quitting, I said we should do an exit negotiation, which is something I teach in the book. How do you do an exit negotiation? And I was like, based on what you’ve shared, I think you should probably ask for a raise when you quit. And she was like, wait, what? Wait, no, I’m like, the day I quit, I’m also asking for a raise. I’m like, yeah, yeah. And here’s how we’re going to frame that. You’re going to say, because she did like an accounting kind of job, so spring season, super busy, you’re going to say, I’ll give you four months notice. I’m going to stay through this busy season. I’m going to handle all these things. I’ll help find a replacement. I’ll give you four months in exchange. I would appreciate.
Jillian: Which is Kind of like that magic phrase. And she said, in exchange, I would appreciate being fairly compensated for my remaining time based on market research. Here would be the current fair compensation for my job role. Which they were like, yes, of course. No, Fantastic. Yeah, please just don’t leave right now.
Stacy: Like that.
Jillian: We, we really want you to save for four months. But then as they got closer and which was a significant raise, it was like a 20% raise for her. She wanted to take the summer off. And they were like, so you’re really quitting. I know you really want the summer off, but what if you just came back? What if you took the summer off and then just came back in the fall? And so she worked out some compromises. Like the end of month books were really important. They didn’t want the temp to cover those. So she said she would come in for one day at the end of the month. Took her about six hours to like, settle the books. She hired the temp, she took the summer off and.
Jillian: But her stipulation of coming back is actually, I think I want every summer off. And they were like, yeah, well, we can talk about that. We can talk about that. Maybe. I think we can make that work. So we started from, like, there’s no way they would ever give me time off. Like, it’s a small company. I’m the only one who does this job. She was the only person in her whole department.
Jillian: She had a 20% raise, she got three months off. And she set herself up to do that repeatedly, which for her gave her that, you know, beyond better lifestyle of like, I want to be home with my kids in the summer, I want to do vacations, I want to do fun stuff, but I want to have a professional career during the school year and make money and keep growing in my career. And so I think it’s like you said, you don’t know if you don’t ask. And honestly, even if you ask and get a horrible response, that’s really good information to know too. If you create a compelling case for your employer and they’re like, yeah, so we don’t actually care about you at all. You’re a cog. Like, so please stop complaining. Go back, go back to work now, you know, for certain.
Jillian: And you can factor that in of like, how long do I see myself sitting with this company? What is my future career here? Or is it maybe time to start thinking about an exit strategy and that mini retirement becomes in between jobs kind of thing?
Stacy: I love that story. And again, it’s like, so much, so many times we take in the narrative and don’t question it. And so often, like I’ve seen this so many times. This is a great example. If you simply decide the kind of life that you want and then architect it and ask the right questions and build the right things, that it is very possible to reach that. Another thing you got me thinking about because I know that a lot of our listeners either are business owners or they aspire to be. When you said that, you know, you ask and you’re kind of like a cog and they don’t value you. And then I was thinking about all these business owners who are basically treating themselves like employees they don’t care about.
Jillian: Yeah, right.
Stacy: Yeah. I mean, that’s kind of mind blowing to me. I love that you brought that up.
Jillian: When I first started working for myself, I bought a mug that said World’s best boss because I had seen so many business owners be their worst boss to themselves. And to your case of like self employed, because I do work with a lot of self employed people, I would say for self employed, those two costs, emotionally fraught, logistically challenging. Those costs are higher for self employed people. Like if you work for Google and you leave for a month, you’re not like, man, if I go traveling for a month, Google might not exist when I come back, like it might disappear from the face of the earth. Like it’s not really a concern you have, it will keep going. But a lot of business owners do have that.
Jillian: So to your point that you mentioned earlier about the schedule, I encourage business owners, especially for the first couple mini retirements, to do about 10% of the hours they typically do in a week. So if you work about 40 hours a week, do at least four during your mini retirement. Because for a lot of them, you know, there’s a kind of a process you can go through to organize your business to really facilitate this. But there’s things that are like really high risk. Like you really need to have eyes on it. And to not have eyes on it is a disproportionate amount of risk for the return. And most people find they feel better and they feel actually more present in their time off.
Jillian: Just checking in for 30 minutes in the morning, checking in on those like really key things that they didn’t feel comfortable completely delegating or doing a half day or a full day once a week and then they’re like, oh, they can just like exhale and be really present in their mini retirement.
Stacy: I mean that really tracks with what I said earlier about just finding that I need about a day in that month. Otherwise, I just feel. I feel stressed. You know, I. Like, I. I want to be the kind of person that can do a full month without thinking at all about, you know, all the things. But in my business, I’m also working with people, like, on a monthly basis, so we’re still in touch, you know, with my private clients and things like that. And. But I would say, like, 95% of the month, or maybe 90, I guess, if I’m really mathing it out, I’m on that, like, mini retirement, so. I love that you said that, because it also. That tracks for me. And I’ve been doing this now for. I don’t know if it’s been four years for something.
Stacy: I mean, I guess, yeah, intentionally, probably for four years of blocking out this one month on my calendar. And that really resonates. Another thing that you write about in your book that I think is such a perfect concept for this podcast is this idea of being stuck at six. Can you talk about that?
Jillian: Yeah. Six, I find, from most people is a very sticky number and that it’s hard. It’s hard to move from a six.
Stacy: You mean, like six being your kind of life quality on that scale of 1 to 10?
Jillian: Yeah, in different. In different areas. You know, if your marriage is a six, do you go to marriage counseling? Like, if your health is a six, do you hire a personal trainer? Like, you know, it. It feels like, well, there’s not a lot of upside. It could get a little bit better, but, like, realistically, there’s not a lot of upside, but there is a lot of downside. You know, if your job is a six, do you find a new job? Do you switch? Like, do you make that big, scary change when things are just kind of okay? Like, they’re. They’re better. My friendships are okay. Like, my health is okay. My relationships are okay. And so it can be really tough to make changes when you’re a six. There’s this quote from Elizabeth Gilbert that I really like.
Jillian: She said that when things are hard, she has this prayer, and she asks God to make things better. And if he can’t make things better, she asks for him to make things much worse. And I have found once things get to a two or a three man, people are open to change. They’re like, because it can’t get much worse, and there’s a lot of upside. And so knowing that can be kind of our. Our human disposition Many returns, an interesting opportunity to look at those areas of your life that just kind of feel okay. And you utilize that time to, how could we make them beyond better? How could I, like, my mental health, it’s okay, but, like, maybe I’m a little too stressed. Maybe I’m burned out.
Jillian: How could I make that beyond better and take that time to figure out how to, like, level some of these things up? One of my many retirements I did in my 20s. I took a month, and I did, like, intensive outpatient therapy. It was like, six hours a day for an entire month. It was so tiring. It was so exhausting, but it was like. It was doing, like, a full house renovation. It was like tearing things down to the studs, redoing the electrical, redoing the plumbing. We were just like, we’re gonna go in, it’s gonna be messy, it’s gonna be hard, but we’re going to take care of all these basics. We’re going to fix the foundation. But I was, like, 27 when I did that. And now I’m still, like, building on that better foundation.
Jillian: I’m still receiving the benefits of taking that thing that was like, okay, it was maybe a six and being able to push it to, like, an eight or a nine. And so I think when you’re thinking about beyond better, like, how do we create the environment to take those things that maybe are a six and figure out how we can try to make them an eight? How can we make them a nine? Like, what would it look like for them to be a 10?
Stacy: I love that. And I think, you know, all of us could honestly look at our lives and find areas that we’re, you know, like, it’s okay, but it’s not amazing. And to your point, I think, again, and I’m. I don’t mean. I mean, I kind of do mean to harp on American culture a bit, but I think I’ve. I’ve deconstructed so much of that living in all of the countries that we’ve lived in, and yet I still carry so much of it. It’s never. I can never completely detangle from all of the things that, you know, were kind of like. Like, harped on my whole life.
Stacy: One of those is really, you know, this idea of, like, just kind of the status quo and just kind of, you know, this is just how things are and just kind of like, you know, what do you expect? You know, are you, like, gonna like your job?
Jillian: Yeah.
Stacy: You know, what do you. What do you think? So I really like that you’re challenging that mindset. Another thing that you’ve brought up a few times. And again, like so much of this conversation is inspiring me to think about these breaks, these mini retirements that I take. I’ve never really gone into one ever with a kind of intention behind it other than it’s always about, I want to spend time with my family. We always make a big list of things we want to do. So it’s not like I’m just like, well, we’re on holiday and you know, it’s, we will have some intention. We often have a trip. But I’ve never really thought about, like creating something out of it or achieve, achieving, but not in the achieving mindset, like Tango or personal growth.
Stacy: Or I’m even thinking like, wow, maybe I take a sabbatical to do a Portuguese intensive course. Because it’s going very slowly and I’m feeling a little frustrated with that progress. I’d like to speed it up a little bit, but I don’t really have the time. You said also that, you know, these spaces can be used for things like that, but they can also be used for creative projects. So, like writing a book. So I’d love for you to share with our listeners and viewers how they could think about this mini retirement as an opportunity to connect with a creative project or to make progress on something or learn a new creative area.
Jillian: Yeah. The reality is for almost all of us, our lives are full. We’re at a hundred percent. There’s not, there’s not these huge vasts of margin of time or emotional energy or mental energy. Like it’s all been allocated. So when you want to transition to a new career, you want to think about a new career, Think about, I call it oftentimes for my clients, like a second chapter career. You had your first chapter and you did the thing and it accomplished its goals. Whether that was like saving your 401k or buying a house or starting a family. And that was great. But do you want to do that for the rest of your life?
Jillian: Or is there maybe something else you would like to do when you’re in the thick of it, when you’re maxed out, not in a bad way, but just all capacity is taken. There isn’t the time, there isn’t the space, there isn’t the margin, there isn’t the bandwidth to do a big creative project or tackle a big personal goal or start a business, especially if you’re in a depleted state. You know, I know a Lot of people that they’re burned out in their job and they want to do something else, but they. They can’t even imagine what else that would be. Well, because you can’t imagine when you’re burned out. Like, that’s the function of burnout. You have less creativity. You have less innovation. Because the function of burnout is to get you out of a bad situation.
Jillian: It’s not to help you thrive in a bad situation. It’s not to help you set up camp in a bad situation. It’s to get you out of a bad situation. Like, if you’re. If your country is in war and you have to flee, burnout will get you across the desert. It won’t be like, hey, this desert’s really beautiful. We should set up camp here and just, like, do art. No, no art, just survival. And so thinking about buying yourself some Runway is a great kind of framework for a career transition, for writing a book, for starting a business. It’s like a mini retirement. But how much Runway do you need? Do you need three months of financial Runway? Do you need 12 months of financial Runway?
Jillian: And something I didn’t know a long time ago, but the length of the Runway is determined by how large the plane is. Little planes only need a little Runway to take off. And so if you only have a little project, you might not need bigger. You might not need a big Runway, you might only need a month to launch a little project. But if you have a big life transition, a big change, you know, you think about for your career, you might have gone to college for four years to figure out what you wanted to do and to prepare for that. That’s a big Runway. If you want to write a book, you need a longer Runway. The bigger the plane, the more Runway you need for it to successfully take off. And so buying yourself that gift, that.
Jillian: That ability, you know, for especially, I don’t know, when we get to middle age, like, when we have kids and especially women, like, it can. Our responsibility to our employers and our families and everyone else feels very pressing. And so I think about that Runway as kind of like your college fund. You know, what if you gave yourself another college fund? Maybe that’s $10,000, maybe that’s $50,000. And you bought yourself from some Runway to explore this new project or to reinvent yourself or to see if you can find a new career. And even if you don’t launch it, there’s a great benefit of knowing, like, I had the option to do something different. I gave myself the option. I Gave myself permission, and I decided I actually really like where I’m at. You know, I had one friend who took a year off.
Jillian: And in that space of like, he had done this career for 15 years and he was like, do I want to do this rest of my life? I don’t know. So he took a year off, he did a bunch of classes. He took, yeah, different courses. He earned some certifications. Like, he explored lots of options, he explored lots of hobbies. And then he interviewed for this new career that he had prepared for and he was offered a couple jobs in it. And in the end he was like, you know what? Now that I’m not burned out, now that I’m rested, now that I’ve done some fun stuff, I think I do actually want to go back to my old career. And he opted for a job in his old career.
Jillian: And the really funny thing about his was a vic story was that the job he got in his old career, it was like a 50% raise over the last job he had because he had been in that job so long. So this is one of the ways that, like, a mini retirement can actually help your finances is if you’ve stayed very long in the same job, you might be underpaid. And the best way to increase your lifetime earning potential might be to switch employers occasionally. And a minute return is a great excuse to do that. But yeah, it gives you that space to explore those things, to recover from burnout, to become more creative, to just get your head up off the ground.
Jillian: Like, if you’re trail running, you just have to stay, stare at the trail the entire time or else you trip and fall. You can’t really take in the scenery and maneuver term is a little bit like, actually, I’m going to walk and I’m going to look around and I’m going to, like, see some new things and actually orient myself to what’s happening around me.
Stacy: And that’s a really great story too, because then also, you know, you go into this next phase post mini retirement and you feel anchored and like you’ve made a really clear decision rather than just defaulting into whatever pathway you’re on. So I think that’s. And also, you know, not making a choice is making a choice. So just continuing down the path without questioning it is still a choice that you’re making. Whereas what you described as a very intentional way of kind of choosing your path forward. So I love that. Another thing that you’ve talked about is for our listeners, many of our listeners and viewers on YouTube are interested in moving abroad and location independence. Can you talk a little bit about how you can use mini retirements to explore. Explore what this could look like in your life?
Jillian: Yeah, I’ve met, I met a lot of people who wanted to live abroad and they’re like, yeah, you know, I’m gonna live in Portugal or Spain or Ecuador. And I’m like, that’s amazing. Where’s your favorite place there? Well, I’ve never been. And I’m like, oh, yeah, it’s possible you can move places.
Stacy: I moved here without visiting Europe in general.
Jillian: You can do it.
Stacy: Always work out so well.
Jillian: You can do it. But I think about these big changes. Y’ all remember Evel Knievel? Like, this is such a old school reference, but he used to, like on a motorbike, jump canyons.
Stacy: Yes.
Jillian: But the trick to it is that you build ramps on both sides of the canyon. And if you really figure out the ramps, the jump looks dangerous, it looks daunting, but mathematically it’s pretty safe. And so you can use a mini retirement to essentially help build these ramps to travel places, to test out places. Go live there for a month, see how you feel about it, see how you like the vibe. Because some people can make the jump with no ramps, and that’s great. But if you’re feeling trepidation, if you’re feeling hesitant, if you think, I want to make that jump, but it feels a little too big and a little too scary to just trust that I’m going to make it to the other side in one jump.
Jillian: You don’t have to just build the ramps on both sides, whether that’s visiting that place, visiting a couple places. If you are like, I want to retire overseas, you could take a mini retirement once a year for five or six years and try out different countries, see where you like to go. I think there’s a misconception that big, bold changes are just for the courageous. They’re just for the ones who are full of optimism and can figure things out and they’re resilient. And yeah, it’s a little bit easier if you have that, like, personality. But it’s not exclusive to that personality. There’s a systematic way to build courage and to build resilience.
Jillian: And the mini retirement gives you the ability to do those things that you look at someone who’s super courageous and who’s super bold and resilient and can figure stuff out and you can do what they’re doing with just Putting a little bit more thought into building the ramps.
Stacy: I like that a lot. And, you know, I think there’s another mindset bust that needs to happen there for Americans, because a lot of us think, oh, well, I only go to Europe, like, once in my life or, like, a couple of times. And I think once you start doing things like this and you realize that tons of other people are doing things like this, it becomes normalized. And. And, you know, when we moved here, this was our fourth country that we moved to, so were experienced at living abroad. We were living in Thailand when we chose this as our location. And, you know, like, probably we should have visited, but at that point, were like, we had such a. Okay, to your point, our move to Thailand was a disaster in so many ways.
Stacy: And I think if we had actually gone to where we ended up moving and really tested it out, I don’t think we ever would have moved there. So many great things. So grateful for that experience. And I love Thailand still, but, you know, we didn’t do what you’re describing when we packed up our life and moved. Now I’m glad in a lot of ways that we did that because it got us out and doing the thing, and eventually we ended up here, so I wouldn’t take it back. And I think that there’s so much value in going and trying things and seeing how it works for you. And if you do go, a lot of times people will come for. It’s so funny. We see tourists all the time.
Stacy: They’re here for three days in my town, and they’re like, all of the real estate offices have, you know, the pricing up for properties. And I hear these Americans, British, other people from all over. Oh, yeah, I could really see myself living here. And, you know, they’re looking at. They’re talking, like, seriously about the properties. And I’m always kind of chuckling a little, not at them, but just, you know, you can go somewhere for three days and you’re in vacation mode and, you know, but when you actually have to go somewhere and like, grocery shop and, you know, like, get around and maybe, you know, have to deal with some of the logistics and everyday life, it becomes a very different thing. So you have to know if you can handle that. If, like, that’s exciting to you and it’s.
Stacy: The place is what you thought it was. So I think that gives people a really nice opportunity to explore that through mini retirement. I would love for you just to, like, tie the bow on our conversation. We’ve talked about A lot, and probably a lot of our listeners and viewers, this might be a little bit of a different topic for them. And there’s a lot of things kind of swirling around. Maybe they’re feeling inspired to explore this. If our listeners and viewers could take away one thing from this conversation, what do you hope it is?
Jillian: It might be more possible than you can see or imagine in this moment. And that’s okay. Like, you don’t have to start with the full picture. You just have to start. And it’s one of the things like with my book, my intention wasn’t read the book and the next month you can take a mini retirement. But if you’re curious, if you have questions, if you have yeah, buts, read the book and just plant the seed. Because when I’ve noticed when we have an intention in life, when we have an aspiration and we slowly kind of tinker and work our way towards that, sometimes life provides opportunities. Maybe you end up getting laid off and you get a six month severance. Maybe you decide to switch jobs and the next employer’s like, yeah, we don’t need you to start right away.
Jillian: Like, it would be okay if you start four weeks later. You know, life, you might move across the country and you’re switching jobs and like you could take an extra month or two off. Like, life might provide you opportunities if you have that little seed planted, you know, planted in there and those, yeah, buts the more you learn and the more you just become aware, like they start to fade, you realize actually there’s other, there’s ways to figure this out. Like everything’s figureoutable, everything has a solution, even if you don’t see it initially.
Stacy: That’s just like a life, I think like a general life perspective. So I love that. I mean, you’re looking at this through the lens of many retirements, but I think that’s so applicable across so many things that we just make assumptions but never really test those. It’s such a good thing to leave us with. I want to ask you the question that I ask all of my guests, which is if you could recommend one book to listeners, and this is one that has profoundly impacted your life in some way, what would it be and why?
Jillian: I read a lot of books, so it’s always a tough question, but I’ve been thinking about this one and one that I read over and over. It’s actually currently in my bathroom, it might be useful for your readers is a Seth Godin book. It’s called the Icarus Deception. And it’s based on the mythology of Icarus that, you know, he wasn’t supposed to fly too high to the sun because the wax on his wings would melt, but he also wasn’t supposed to fly too low. And how as a culture, we’ve kind of erased that bottom part. Like don’t shoot too low either because there’s also danger. And so it’s a great book for creatives, for entrepreneurs, for people who are trying to be more bold and create lives that are beyond better.
Jillian: It’s very bite sized little nuggets of like, I read it, I reread it every time I get something out of it.
Stacy: That’s a great recommendation. We’ll be sure to link to that in the show notes. And we can’t go without you telling our listeners and viewers how to find you, how to get your book. What’s the best place to check out your ecosystem and follow your journey and your information?
Jillian: Yeah, the book is everywhere. It’s called retire often and retireoften.com is kind of where everything lives. I’ve got a bunch of free worksheets and resources there. I have a newsletter that I send out sporadically, but people seem to like it. I don’t know, it’s strange, it’s a little chaotic, but people have stuck around for years and they say they like it. So that’s probably my most consistent thing as I write my email newsletter.
Stacy: Well, we’ll be sure to link to your website and to your book in the show notes. And thank you so much for joining me today, Jillian. This has been such a fun conversation and you know, I really, I hope there’s somebody or many somebody’s out there listening to this, watching this that have changed. Something inside of them has completely shifted and they’re considering a different way of functioning in the world that can hopefully be more intentional and more joyful and you know, lead to more financial success. So thank you so much for sharing with our audience.
Jillian: Thanks for having me.
Stacy: And thank you to you, our listeners, our viewers, for being with us. If you are still here with us, you must have loved this episode and this conversation. So do be sure that you are subscribed or following so you don’t miss conversations like this. And if you have a moment to rate and review the podcast, it makes a huge difference in helping me reach more people with the message of living a life that’s not just better, but beyond better. And I would be remiss if I did not thank Rita Domingues for her production of this podcast and our YouTube. She is truly the reason that you’re watching or listening to this. If it weren’t for her, you would never hear it. So I’m so grateful for her and everything she does to.
Stacy: To get our message out, our mission out and share this with you, and I will be back with you before you know it.
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